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The Problem with Challenging "Sheldon Silver"

by: simonstl

Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 19:55:57 PM EDT


In comments here, here, here, here, and here, we've seen a pretty frequent cycle of conversation, and not a particularly helpful one.

If you suggest that Sheldon Silver controls his conference or the Assembly, his defenders rise up and claim that no, he's not a dictator. He just does the will of his conference. Er, without consulting too many folks publically, because that would be, er, inconvenient. And all those strings he controls, like member items, capital spending, lulus, and so on... it's just part of the job. He'd never abuse them, right? Or use his power cynically to increase his personal power by, say, trading the Republicans the right to gerrymander their house so long as he gets to gerrymander his. It's just tradition, right? It couldn't be a betrayal of progressive politics because he's always fighting the Republicans.

Given the general dodging that comes from Assembly members when you push on these questions, it's hard to pin down just who's running the show. Silver himself is probably the least interested in clarifying who's in charge, a situation that serves him well since a failed long-ago coup.

Perhaps the biggest problem with this conversation, however, is that it offers an endless circle of claims and counter-claims without getting to the central point. Whether Silver himself is really the problem, or just the figurehead the rest of the Assembly hides behind, the results are still a mess. I wrote earlier:

When Silver's accused of being a dictator, his defenders claim he's only doing the will of the conference. At the same time he has no small amount of leverage over his conference.

My explanation is that it's a mutually-reinforcing disaster, where legislators fear and hide behind Silver as is convenient for them, and reap the benefits if they stay with the pack.

I know a lot of TAP folks are excited to see Paul Newell and Luke Henry challenging Speaker Silver. I'm certainly delighted myself, glad to see that someone is willing to take on so powerful a legislator by challenging the very way he works.

I worry, though, that we need to be looking well beyond the Speaker's chair. Even if a reformer were to knock Silver out in a primary, it's not likely a reformer would become Speaker. The rest of the Assembly is still there, with plenty of legislators who've spent a long time learning from Silver and their colleagues how to make this system work.

Reformers need to be very careful in how they approach Sheldon Silver - not because he's so wonderful personally, but because of the way he's carefully assembled a story and a supporting cast. Allowing Republicans the Senate has let him cast himself as a progressive, and his battles with the Governor's office have let him cast himself as the defender of legislative prerogatives, the leader of "the people's house".

Effectively challenging the support Silver gets demands more than just challenging Silver. It's not hard to tell true and dismal stories about the Speaker for contrast. Unfortunately, it keeps us attacking the biggest and most prominent head of a hydra. We need to be showing voters the hydra, how it reaches their districts directly, and how their own representatives are a part of it.

Silver is too important to ignore. At the same time, however, focusing our ire on Silver (and similarly on Bruno) is to target only one aspect of Albany's dysfunction. Silver's job titles certainly include that of lightning rod, taking heat himself, keeping it away from his conference. If we want to reform the New York State Legislature, we need to start looking at all of its members, not just the ones who happen to be on top of the heap.

We need to break a vicious cycle that's limited New York for decades. Challenging Sheldon Silver on his own turf is certainly part of that, but we also need to challenge everyone who keeps this cycle going. That's going to mean regular criticism of the Assembly, not just its Speaker.

As Democrats, we're pretty good at challenging Republican Senators across the board, not just Bruno. We need to accept that the same lesson applies on our own side of the aisle, in the Assembly. That won't come easily.

simonstl :: The Problem with Challenging "Sheldon Silver"
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Thank you so much for writing this (4.00 / 1)
I would love to see more primary challengers in the Assembly.  Unfortunately not enough people are up for that thankless task.

People can and should (4.00 / 1)
challenge that which they do not like. I'm not sure it's that people are not up for the "thankless" task. Perhaps there is simply many Democrats who are supporting Democrats in the Assembly all the way down to the district level.

Simon I don't consider myself a 'defender,' I merely don't always see things as you do. If "it's hard to pin down just who's running the show" in the Assembly, I'm not so sure it is something sinister but rather a testament to a leader who gives his conference a tremendous amount of weight in what goes on. I don't think you have to wonder who is running the show over in the Senate as Bruno has more of a 'dictator' style (similar to what we saw in Spitzer). So it is easy for us to characterize it as such.

You say "Silver himself is probably the least interested in clarifying who's in charge, a situation that serves him well," again your opinion. I think there is nothing to clarify. It's pretty self evident he shares the decision making process with the members who elected him their leader. And that is such a strikingly different management style in government these days that it does not fit neatly into a category.


[ Parent ]
Ouch... (0.00 / 0)
You hurt my feelings when you said that our conversations weren't particularly helpful. I'm going to go make myself a cup of tea. {sigh}

What do you say, TruBlu? Robinia? Should we find ourselves a progressive blog that takes on our enemies instead of our friends? (I'd start one, but I'm a complete incompetent when it comes to such things.)

Seriously, I do appreciate the time and energy it takes to do this every day. I love the enthusiasm on this blog and even enjoy some of the over-the-top stuff. The anti-Silver, anti-Assembly stuff I don't get. My perspective comes from decades of caring about issues and from an appreciation of the Assembly's role in so many of our successes.

I was going to say that maybe I should visit but not comment - since I don't want to waste anyone's time with unhelpful conversation - but then I started "defending" again.

Oh, poor conflicted me!    


I don't think _you're_ the problem (0.00 / 0)
I just think reformers need to look beyond Sheldon Silver personally.

Problems with conversations, especially ones that repeat over and over and over, typically involve both sides.

You might find nextgendemsblog more to your liking, but that site doesn't even take comments.  I guess that's one way to avoid conversation completely...


[ Parent ]
Stop giving the 19th Century "Dems" traffic (4.00 / 1)


[ Parent ]
Oh, I dunno (4.00 / 1)
Maybe I shouldn't, but it's hard to resist.  I read it pretty purely as satire at this point.

I mean, how many times can someone write "Hey you kids, get off my lawn!" before you start expecting to hear "I would have gotten away with it if it wasn't for you meddling kids!"

Yeah, "next gen" probably wasn't the best choice of title.

Laughter's the best medicine, right?


[ Parent ]
I agree (4.00 / 1)
but they don't know when a pageview is ironic- it probably inflates their pathetic sense of self-worth when someone actually reads their site (on those rare days)

[ Parent ]
Thank you for that (0.00 / 0)
site. Very funny. Someone is always pointing to different we sites here and I find it very informative. But having just gone to it I can say I saw that Newell and Henry will knock people off the primary ballot in the race for A-64 if that's what is needed to win. Is that what we expect from reformers, or is that just more of the same.

[ Parent ]
I like to check (0.00 / 0)
things out for myself. Sorry, I see that Azibroke this story about petitions and that Luke Henry wrote in to say he has NO plan to bust them. Apologies to Luke Henry for lumping him in with Newell who does have plans to 'petition bust'. But this raises a point. TAP can be hypocritical when it presents itself as the voice of reform and then doesn't take on one of it's own for not being reform minded.

And a larger observation is what is the goal of TAP in general? From an outsider it appears to do have done two main things from the start: 1. promote Senate Democrats. 2. beat up Assembly Democrats and call for their ouster. As you say above you want "regular criticism of the Assembly, not just its Speaker."

Just keeps confirming for me what Phil worked out with Eliot a long time ago. Because this 1-2 smacks of Eliot's agenda for total control.    


[ Parent ]
there's an "About..." on every page (4.00 / 1)
which has the wild and crazy claim that:

"The Albany Project seeks to return New York State Government to its rightful owners - the people."

Up at the top, there are also "behind that door are three men in a room..." and "This belongs to you. Take it back..."

It seems reasonably clear to me, though there are plenty of times I wonder if people read it or if it just gets lost in all the trim.


[ Parent ]
Essentially, I believe the fish rots from the head down (4.00 / 1)
I hardly think we're alone in seeing that we have an epically dysfunctional legislature- just abut every editorial board in the state, every good-government group, and the Brennan Center all agree.  Don't you think there is at least a grain of truth in this contention?  Being that the democrats control the Assembly and the Republicans control the Senate, isn't it logical to place the blame on those respective caucuses?

[ Parent ]
You are not alone (0.00 / 0)
I will give you that but not everyone agrees about what the problem is. To answer Simon, yes I see the symbols but then I read the posts. Like this one where you bemoan the same debate resurfacing and yet precipitate the same debate once again. I can't help but think 'doth protest too much'. I don't mean to cast doubt, so don't take this the wrong way, but perhaps traffic to TAP spikes when you attack Silver and perhaps like the TV industry playing to ratings some have figured out that Democrats attacking the entire Democratic Assembly on a regular basis might drive even more interest. Bravo someone has cracked the interest meter code in a blue state.  

[ Parent ]
I have no problem with the pro-Shelly people here (4.00 / 2)
as long as they keep it civil.  

I do think that the arguments on both sides have gotten repetitive though.  

As a Shelly critic, I still give him credit for some of the things he does, like supporting the right issues when he does, and I always say I take him over Joe Bruno or any republican any day.  Now, can any of the pro-Shelly people admit that there is anything wrong with what Shelly has done?


[ Parent ]
I'm good with the Assembly (0.00 / 0)
on issues so I guess I'd have to go to process. If we want to make the lower House the people's house there is only one way to do it. Strip the leader post of it's power. That means allowing the public to pick all Committee Chairs. The public could also pick all leader posts, as well as the top post of Speaker. And when the Speaker conferences with members let the public in. That would do it, although I know of no legislature in the nation let alone the world that governs like this. And if you open it up as such you allow the Republican's a say in governing the lower house and is that fair when the people of this state elected Democrats to run the Assembly. Just not sure that's a fair way to do it.

[ Parent ]
representative democracy still a good idea (4.00 / 2)
I don't think you've heard me calling for referendums or a restructuring of the legislature by statewide vote.

It might be rhetorically convenient for you to pretend that it's a stark choice between what we have and having the public vote on every personnel detail, but the reality is that there's a wide variety of possibilities between those choices.

And what's more, most state legislatures operate somewhere between them.


[ Parent ]
I will study up then (4.00 / 1)
I agree I was stark in comparison. Please suggest for me a legislature that we should emulate (even if it's not exact) and I will go read about it. If there's a better way I am not anti-reform at all. I am just leary of reform in sheeps clothing.  

[ Parent ]
Check out Iowa (0.00 / 0)
They're a pretty good model- mostly because there's no gerrymandering

[ Parent ]
Iowa it is (0.00 / 0)
Yes, I see they have a redistricting model that is non partisan. But the result seems to be incumbent shuffling. They just seem to move where they live and run in a neighboring seat if drawn together. I guess the process is entertaining. But does it make for better policy? A quick look at the house rules which appear at first blush  to prohibit advocates from hand distributing literature at the capitol, and their short session calendar and the issues (I mean come on, it's an all Democratic state from Governor to Senate and House and they can't lead the way on droppingEnglish Only which is a violation of Federal law?) and I'm not impressed. Add to that a small state like Iowa can only build up clout in Congress through seniority, not numbers, and their redistricting process has defeated a veteran representative. I suppose if you want a revolving door you can create one, but if the end result is just that, I don't see the value other than entertainment. I admit I am an end result person, I care more about the policy that gets pumped out and the effect on people's lives. In that regard I do not see Iowa as a model and their redistricting process as having resulted in substantial policy or house rules reform. I will dig deeper.  

[ Parent ]
But you have to remember that Iowa is a more conservative state than NY (0.00 / 0)
Combine Iowa process and the blueness of NY constituents and that would be a great win-win.

[ Parent ]
On another note (0.00 / 0)
I'm really glad that we have been able to have this discussion without any insults and have kept this a high-minded debate on the issues.  I look forward to continuing this debate in this fashion in the future.  

[ Parent ]
most midwestern states (0.00 / 0)
seem to do pretty well, except maybe IL.  Nebraska is unique for having a unicameral legislature.

Vermont sounds pretty good, but New Hampshire has a gigantic and unwieldy lower house.  I've only heard good things about MA and NJ when discussed in comparison to NY.  Probably the same goes for PA and MD.

It's a field I'm starting more research on, and I'll post more detail as I get there.  I've mostly been looking into redistricting options.

(And yes TruBlu, I know I still owe the info on Lifton and civil unions/marriage.  So far I've found older pieces from her suggesting that the state get out of the marriage business entirely, but that's not quite the piece I'm looking for.)


[ Parent ]
What I have heard Lifton say is... (4.00 / 1)
...that she fully supports the Governor's move to recognize legal marriages performed elsewhere, and intends to continue to push for the Senate to approve marriage equality in NYS.  She said that most recently just last week.

The earliest I remember her supporting the LGBT community and the Pride agenda was back when our children were in day care together, and she was still married to her first husband, Don Lifton.  That would have been over a couple of decades ago.  Steadfast, dependable, and loyal, IMHO.  Policy options, of course, change depending on what is currently on the table, what seems like it could stand court challenge.


[ Parent ]
I don't doubt her support for the LGBT community at all (0.00 / 0)
which is why I was initially really surprised by her stance on marriage.  

That was before I was following legislative politics closely, so I didn't keep track of her changing positions as carefully as I should have.

It was, however, one of the things that really made me wonder what was going on, especially when her Republican opponent was supporting gay marriage (as it was called then).

I think you almost got it right at the end:

Policy options, of course, change depending on what is currently on the table, what seems like it could stand court challenge.

It's just missing a final phrase, "what seems like it's okay to propose given the position of the conference back in Albany."

Her current position makes much much more sense to me, and I suspect it may be what she always wanted to say anyway.  But it's hard to know.

(I think that the piece I'm looking for is in an old Ithaca Times - that'll take a while to dredge.)


[ Parent ]
Not everyone agrees about how to get to reform (4.00 / 1)
Strategies and tactics differ markedly from individual to individual.  Please don't get disaffected, rather, put forward your own ideas.

I'm a big believer in making whatever positive change we can, incrementally, at every step along the way.  I think we can work for reform every day, by talking, educating, and, yes, sometimes even bargaining. That's my experience of how grassroots organizing and lobbying can be effective.  I very strongly believe that elected officials can change their minds about things over time, if their constituents show them that they care deeply about these issues.

Some folks think that reform requires a complete new cast of characters.  I think that is very unlikely to happen, and might not be all that effective if it did.  There really is some art and skill to governing, and a Legislature of newbies would be as unlikely to succeed at good government as the current group, IMHO, as long as the rules and structure remained unchanged.

The Assembly has been progressive on the issues, and has been both a steady pressure for progressive causes and also a bulwark against some of the worst of the Republicans (like, say, the death penalty).  I like quite a number of the Assembly members and staffers as individuals, and respect them, too. Even some members of the minority ;-)

I don't think that the only way to get change is to criticize and challenge everybody who is incumbent.  But, it is surely important that we let everybody post about what they think will work.  That's how community-based wisdom works.  Run it up the flag pole, see what other folks think.

As far as hurt feelings, I understand-- am one of the world's most sensitive types, myself; try to let it slide by.  Everybody's opinion is helpful-- it all helps us get closer as a society to the ideal of democracy.


[ Parent ]
I hung out with Eric Schneiderman last week (4.00 / 2)
and he basically said most legislators are followers, not leaders, and no one really does anything unless they're scared of not being re-elected.  

We've tried every other method to reform our legislature and it's failed- I really think our only option left is to start toppling some tall trees.


[ Parent ]
?? (4.00 / 1)
"no one really does anything"?

That is unlikely to be what Schneiderman really said.... although, assuredly, it is extremely difficult to accomplish much as a minority Senator under Bruno's dictatorial leadership.  We should be careful not to misquote sitting elected officials in ways that they might have to defend themselves against in future.

I checked Schneiderman's web site, here, and note that the first two stories are about bills that he is supporting/pushing that started in the Assembly-- and his references to the Assembly in that regard are quite positive.

Make no mistake, our legislature does, in fact, put forward legislation, hold public hearings, and do due diligence on issues.  Not as well or as much as would be best, but, it is over-the-top hyperbole to suggest that there is no work getting done whatever.

Leadership is a rare and elusive gift; not the inevitable result of enough use of the guillotine (or its less violent, but just as arbitrary alternative, "vote the bums out") as was first demonstrated in the iconic results of the French Revolution.  Most PEOPLE are followers, and most elected leaders have some leadership talents that can be nurtured.  Eliminating current leadership can allow others a turn at the helm, but, the best preparation for good leadership is increasing responsibility, judiciously exercised, not the sudden power vacuum that results in the most aggressive person available taking control. Coups get you people like Bruno.  


[ Parent ]
But replacing Shelly really is a no-lose scenario (4.00 / 1)
the worst that could happen is that someone like himself becomes speaker- good on the liberal checklist but bad on reform.  At least with a replaement, there is a possibility of having someone ofr interested in transparency and accountability

[ Parent ]
priorities and sequence (4.00 / 1)

This election NY voters seem to regard Joe Bruno and the Republican state Senate majority as by far the major obstacle to good or better state government in Albany.

Seems to me that (a) this is correct, and (b) like electorates everywhere else, they're tuning out out complaints about Silver as relatively unimportant by comparison at this point.  So maybe people here are getting a bit far ahead of the voters.

If Senate Democrats are smart and have the majority next year, they'll present no significant target to swing voter criticism and have some popular things to show after a couple of months, just like Gov. Paterson.  This will (with a little help via fingerpointing in the media) have the desirable effect of making Silver and the Assembly responsible for the continued, er, underperformance in Albany sometime next year and in the '10 elections.

If/when that happens, inside the Assembly there's going to be fingerpointing at Silver and his closest cronies, of course.  Along with the usual games of tying the leadership clique to particular corruptions and the feds then looking into the charges.


my hope is (0.00 / 0)
that with Democrats winning the Senate, the Assembly will lose it's largest excuse for its own dysfunction.  It won't be able to point to "those Republicans" any more.  It'll be a lot harder to grandstand with one-house bills, too.

We'll see how that actually plays out.  I've argued for a long time that the Assembly shouldn't have the right to complain about the Senate, given their role in keeping it Republican via gerrymandering, but I think a Democratic Senate would do a lot more to make their excuses collapse in the public mind.

Will the game end, or will we just move on to another kind of game?  That I'm not sure about.


[ Parent ]
Issues change (4.00 / 1)
To me, the big seachange if/when the Senate goes blue is that there will need to be more attention/stafftime/funds devoted to upstate issues.  Where rural issues were previously simply left to Republicans to handle (MAUL, actually), there will have to be some concerted effort to focus on rural issues now, as they are "our baby now" so to speak.

An excellent beginning in this regard is the formation of a NYS Senate Upstate Caucus.  But, in a world of limited time and limited resources, adding, say, a public hearing or policy analysis of an upstate issue would mean less available for downstate issues.  Like, say, there might be more attention paid to crumbling bridges, and a bit less to subway fares.  Or more to farming's complicated fortunes, and less to rent control's arcane minutea of rules.

There will be some infighting.... are we not the classic factionating, fractionating circular firing squad party?... but Paterson may show some real strength in minimizing it.

Process change, I hope, will stay focused initially on Clean Money Clean Elections; the right kind of electoral housecleaning will flow from that procedural change, which will put the right incentives in place for further legislative reform.


[ Parent ]
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