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We're All Having the Wrong Debate on Property Taxes

by: Roatti

Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 01:00:15 AM EDT


Those following the latest in the property tax saga are familiar with the war of words that erupted today between WPF Chair Dan Cantor, David Paterson, and Tom Suozzi.  Adding to the dispute, NYSUT decided to deny their endorsement to any Senator who voted for the property tax cap.  

Basically, both sides have good intentions.  Paterson and Suozzi know that property taxes in NY are through the roof and are stifling growth and are making in unaffordable for many people to continue to keep living in their homes.  WPF and NYSUT rightly argue that schools need more resources and teachers are underpaid when you look at their salaries in the context of the cost of living downstate.  Unfortunately, both sides are now digging in their heels and the discourse is taking a nose dive.  

In a nutshell, the property tax cap is a very blunt instrument.  And I can see why people would be supporting desperate measures in a desperate time.  However, the real debate has just become over the pros and cons using a very blunt instrument instead of a discussion of why property taxes are so high outside of NYC in the first place.  If the state doesn't address these issues, we are all forced into this paradigm of the false choice between high property taxes vs. education cuts.  

There are really two main reasons for high property taxes, and this whole discussion has almost completely ignored both of them:

1) Under state law, the only kind of taxes that municipalities are allowed to raise without the legislature's approval are property taxes.  With a framework like this, of course property taxes are through the roof.

Municipalities have to go hat-in-hand to the legislature if they want to raise any other type of tax, like sales or income taxes. To his credit, Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver has been pushing for raising state income taxes on the highest earners. However, a much more beneficial effect would be obtained just by giving municipalites this power.  The only two municipalities in the state with progressive income taxes are NYC and Yonkers- I'm not sure about Yonkers, but I know NYC has significantly lower property tax rates than the rest of the state in part because NYC collects a progressive income tax on its residents. And NYC still has to get the legislature's approval for any adjustments it wants to make to this.  

Allowing other municipalities to at least have the option of levying progressive income taxes in lean times would go a long way towards taking the tax burden off of property taxpayers, which is a regressive burden in many ways.

2) The truly redicioulous inefficiency and redundancy that is caused by dividing up municipal services into towns, villages, fire districts, sewer districts, library districts, water districts, ect.. and allowing all of these districts to levy property taxes in the residents in their jurisdiction is essentially just flushing property tax money down the toilet.  

The New York State Commission on Local Government Efficiency and Competiveness made an attempt to adress these issues, though in my opinion, it didn't go far enough.  Suozzi's property tax commission adopted the NYCLGEC's recommendations in full, but they have essentially been forgotten in this debate since then.  

A good way to put this in perspective is to look at it in reverse.  I know I might be being a little NYC-centric, but bear with me:

Imagine if tomorrow, the Mayor, City Council, and State Legislature decided to take NYC's Department of Sanitation and divide it into several different sewer districts, each with their own executives and boards making six-figure salaries and maintaining their own parts of sewer infrastructure with little or no coordination with eachother.  And then imagine if the same powers decided to break up the 5 boroughs into towns and make each one have their own independent municial govenments.  And furthermore, allowed seperate villages to form within the towns and maintain their own seperate snowplowing fleets, police forces, and everything else.  Now imagine doing the same process with libraries, fire departments, and all the rest.  That would be an absolutely terrible idea.  The different property taxes levied on the residents of the former NYC would be through the roof- just like they are everywhere else in NY.  

If doing that to NYC is clearly such a terrible idea, then getting rid of all these disparate municipal entities outside of NYC and putting them under wider local government economies of scale, like counties, is clearly a good idea.  And this is the type of idea that this debate should be centered around.

Roatti :: We're All Having the Wrong Debate on Property Taxes
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Roatti for Governor? (4.00 / 1)
But seriously, this is the exact type of straight to the point problem analysis that we sorely lack in Albany.  I'm worried that we'll have to elect an entirely new slate of politicians in order to get this type of logical analysis (and the reform that would naturally follow).

Should we start forming the TAP caucus for 2010?  It may be time.


lol thanks buddy (0.00 / 0)
I'm down for a TAP caucus in 2010, but 2008 might not be so bad either.  

[ Parent ]
Too little too late? (0.00 / 0)
My thinking is that the type of organization and reform agenda needed is very expansive and a lot of planning would be needed.  For 2008, it's at the point where we need to support reform candidates as much as possible (especially in primaries of safe seats, like Daniel Squadron).

[ Parent ]
Good point (0.00 / 0)
I'm with you on that

[ Parent ]
Your point #2 is the real #1 issue here... (4.00 / 1)
...because the 4,200 or so autonomous property tax levying entities in NY are responsible for soaking up in excess of $41 BILLION a year as of OSC's last count.  Moreover, there is very little public scrutiny of the budgetary decisions being made by most of these entities.  

Schools account for about 64% of the property taxes, though only about 16% of the levying entities.  In my opinion, there is a need for some type of a cap on the amount of allowable annual increase in every entity's tax levy -- not just the schools.  (Incidentally, a limit on annual levy increases is nothing like an actual cut despite the spin of the various anti-cap forces.)

The setting of an annual limit on increases will force a serious search for increased efficiencies throughout these various entities.  This action will likely force a more progressive income tax structure and an enhanced circuit breaker program as well.

FWIW, back on "Day 3" I had done a diary here on the need for reform of our anachronistic (if not insane) local government structure, which precipitated a bit of discussion.  Here's a link:

http://thealbanyproject.com/sh...


Yep. (4.00 / 1)
And, despite Dan's fingering of the Republicans on this problem below, I actually think that the entrenched interests of electeds of both parties make the needed task nearly impossible-- a comment from Albanyrefugee in the prior discussion:

I'm all for reducing the number of taxing municipalities, but how would that ever actually be accomplished? Local politicians and their individual feifdoms live and die on their ability to control and deliver a range of constituent services ... everything from sewer and water services to youth bureau programming to senior services.  Why in a million years would they give up that kind of control and patronage power?


[ Parent ]
Yes- ironically (0.00 / 0)
they may have gone with the tax cap because it is the more politically plausable option

[ Parent ]
Political Party leaders have to look in the mirror... (0.00 / 0)
... and figure out if they're willing to be a part of the solution on this front or not.  If not, I think that their office holders in all levels of government will be dealing with an increasingly cranky constituency on all fronts.

[ Parent ]
Channeling Steve Levy? (4.00 / 1)
Your idea is the same thing Suffolk County Exec. Steve Levy has been pushing for a long time.  He wants to combine several school districts' requisitioning systems, figuring they could save tens of millions of dollars in Suffolk County alone.

Of course, in addition to holding the purse strings, the state legislature also controls the partioning of school districts (and the other municipal entities you mention).  And roadblock Republicans, such as Caesar Trunzo, are too busy opposing progress (when they're not at their homes in Florida) to allow these savings to happen.  Instead of allowing real solutions to move forward, they pass tax cap legislation.


Despite his Dobbsian views on immigration (0.00 / 0)
Levy is dead right on this issue.  If we flip the Senate, something like this is more likely to pass.  This is one example where a political shift to downstate could actually benefit upstate and the burbs because there won't be the GOP senators in charge who keep perpetuating this system.  

[ Parent ]
Unfunded mandates don't help (4.00 / 1)
Don't forget that, under the Governor's proposed budget cuts, a big chunk comes from money already allocated to local governments. If local governments have already made commitments based on their state allocations, where are they going to get that money? It's not like this sort of budget cut actually results in a lot of reduced spending. Instead, you get a lot of tax shifting, with more being shoved down-ticket to entities that can only raise the money they require (or think they require) from regressive taxes. And, because of mandates, a lot of that spending is not optional.

Great Thoughts (4.00 / 1)
Very insightful.  When it comes to property taxes, I draw a blank right now.  It's looking like one of those problems that's just going to stay in New York because these politicians don't have the courage to address some of the exact points you raised.

For municipalities, I can understand, because levying a property tax is the easiest tax to collect for smaller entitites.  And after all, land is the only thing in the town or village that doesn't pick up and leave; it can be seen with the naked eye for assessment, too.  If towns and villages could all levy income tax, employers would go nuts trying to keep track of exactly where each employee lives and...oh...what a mess.  The only other option is a tax on sales within the municipality, but you're going to get villages and towns that just don't see a lot of sales at all; you'd need very large and unnattractive sales tax rates just to make ends meets.  So I'm sad to say, but it's a good thing that any municipality can levy a tax if needed based on that one resource they probably have the most of and will always have value, a property tax.

That said, this entire country is stupid, stupid, stupid for conccocting a system of public of education that forces these taxes up to an astronomical percentage of what's paid.  It's pointed out above that school taxes account for 64% of the problem...why aren't legislators crying "Well, Duh!" and finding a new way to support New York Public schools?  First of all, philosophically, I just don't see what the amound of land someone owns has to do with the prospect of having an educated populace occupying that land.  Education, if it works, is supposed to lead to income, in the end, and not all income leads to land ownership, especially in urban areas.  So why not tax people's income to afford education?  Well, the first step in that would be to tax the wealthy more progressively because they can afford it and the owe it - they didn't get wealthy surrounded by uneducated people.

That's not just a New York problem, it's Federal.  Yes, i'm saying the problem is that big.  Statehouses need to communicate with Congress and end property-tax funded education when the 2009 session begins.  Here we are talking about Congress passing universal health care on a national level...how about universal education one the same scale?  With a fair spread of the tax burden so that every American child has an equal shot at school and every American family pays their fair share.

Finally, if this happens, it would release of the property tax burden that schools throw out there, and then one can begin to address fire districts, school districts, sewer districts, etc.  I believe the very existence of these things isn't bad, as they are services that are very much needed and keeping board accountable to that one specific task is supposed to ensure service to the community.  But, yeah, we don't live in a perfect world.  Some school boards do their job, others end up politicizing the whole process.  And, yes, wasting money.  I think the biggest problem with these entities is not inherent in the entity, but inherent in the community.  That's right: we're not going to get out of this property tax debate unless a hell of a lot of citizens of New York state wake up one day fully ashamed of themselves for not having participated in government.  The turn out rates for the elections for those municipal, town, and village boards, are disastrously low.  People need to pay attention instead of voting for American Idol.  Get a law through the Legislature like they've got in Australia: you vote or you get fined.  Your indecision results in a weaker democracy, which costs us money, so either participate or pay up.  That measure in itself would raise millions in the first couple years

Just a couple ideas.  Who knows if they're good or bad...tanks to Roatti for getting the conversation started.


Thanks and I completely agree (0.00 / 0)
local funding for education is one of the stupidest ideas ever created.  It goes back to the start of our republic and is long overdue for an overhaul.  Local funding not only causes regressive property taxes to go up, it also virtually guarantees bad educational systems for poor communities.  And I also agree on the requirement for voting- the Aussies are dead right on that one.  

[ Parent ]
Federal funding of education is the key to property tax relief. (0.00 / 0)
In NY, only about 5% of the total cost of our public education system is coming from the Federal government.  Education is a national government expense in most of the rest of the industrialized world, but here we leave it to State & local property taxpayers (including renters) to foot the lion's share of the bill.  


[ Parent ]
Nice Post Roatti! (4.00 / 1)
Two points here.  The statewide Democratic and WFP alliance to reform Albany needed to develop a policy strategy from the get go on property taxes.  Advocating the elimination of all the multitudes of special districts is one part.  Nassau County Assessor Levinson has been banging the drums for years on this with little effect because the same phenomena that exists when everyone says they hate congress but everyone loves their incumbent congressman plays out with Special Districts as well, "Don't take away my special community swimming pool district", you'll hear from some in Nassau for example.

The real issue as a Suffolk County property taxpayer that our taxes are suffocating us is the enormous public school tax that is about two thirds of most homeowners tax bill.  The policy that the Democratic/WFP efforts should have developed was to remove public school funding from the homestead property tax and onto a progressive income tax.  That would have resulted in huge savings for older or employment endangered homeowners while having a more fair taxing of higher income wealth to support our system of public education. The non-homestead property tax that is really the reason why NYC homeowner taxes are so low should remain in place.

Because of our failure to address this issue head-on and early we once again find ourselves in the middle of the silly season vulnerable to the typical Republican low hanging fruit platform of property tax caps.  They sound to good to oppose by suburban voters desperate for relief and places us in a position of opposing relief by attempting to educate the public on past failures like California's Prop 13 that a tax cap will eventually lead us to.  Maybe it is not too late if we act now to roll out a fair income tax proposal for public education funding as a positive counter proposal to the tax cap.  We must offer something that will reduce homeowners tax burdens and not just oppose tax caps because not to do so will hand the suburban vote right back to the Republicans and their state senate majority.


I would like to see the Dems and WPF fight for the progressive income tax for education (0.00 / 0)
But I don't think that will realistically pass the legislature, at least not while the GOP runs the Senate.  Another benefit of giving municipalities income taxing power is that it allows the state pols to dodge the issue and just put it off on the local pols.  They do that with everything else, so I don't see why they shouldn't do it here.  

[ Parent ]
thanks (4.00 / 1)
Good post, Roatti.  I don't think you're being NYC centric at all - you're just trying to make a point.

What needs to be communicated to the teachers unions, though, is that the quality of education is going to go down no matter what happens with the property tax cap - for reasons we well know (declining population driven out by taxes).  So I think it is incumbent on the unions to come up with and proactively PROMOTE new ideas about consolidation of local governments.  


Good point (0.00 / 0)
You should check out Bouldin's piece about this- def worth a read:

http://dailygotham.com/blog/bo...


[ Parent ]
Actually . . . (4.00 / 1)
I think the number one problem is government spending.  In Washington, Albany and in local governments.

We are overtaxed because government overspends.

Look at Medicaid.  In a now-three year-old study, the NYT reported that at least 40 percent of State Medicaid spending was fraudulent or wasteful.  They estimated the waste at $18 billion a year.  And that's just Medicaid.

Instead of tackling the admittedly tough problem in rooting out fraud, waste and abuse, the Governor is proposing cutting across the board, and worse, adjusting state aid formulas, which will only shift the burden of financing unfunded mandates from the state to local governments.

Money is pouring out of state accounts like a sieve.  If we got control over our own finances, we could fully fund education (including truly universal Pre-K), give every child in New York truly comprehensive healthcare, and still give every taxpayer a meaningful tax cut.  Truly.

Consolidation/regionalism is a part of the solution.  Revising funding formulae is part of the solution.  Ending unfunded mandates is part of the solution.

But the real solution is to hold legislators and executives accountable.  Their job isn't just to appropriate, it is to ensure that taxpayers are getting the highest possible value for their dollars, something that clearly is not happening right now.


Actually.... (4.00 / 1)
...excessive layers of governmental "accountability" measures can very easily end up costing more than the fraud and waste.  Although, some of it sometimes get categorized as "waste."  But, a lot of things that would just be a variable cost of doing business in a business context (say, employee theft of office supplies) become a byzantine maze of attempts to have a  zero-tolerance policy when a government does it.  Which, unfortunately, can cost more than the potential loss.... and still not succeed at accomplishing zero tolerance.

Perhaps it does all come down to holding legislators accountable, but, voters are not going to do that in an detailed and precise way.  Oversight is essential, as are checks and balances.  But, the private sector will always have some leaks around redundant capacity and oligopolistic tendencies to rentseeking, and the public sector will always have some corruption and featherbedding.  That's a part of why mixed economies do better than "pure" capitalism or socialism.


[ Parent ]
Best example= health insurance (4.00 / 1)
Bureacucracy and profit in the private sector=24% of costs.

Bureacuracy in medicare+medicaid= 3% of costs.


[ Parent ]
Roatti's post (4.00 / 1)
Great points. I will add however, that NYSUT and WFP having been pushing for property tax reform for 3 years. The powers that be ignored their ideas. Now they are shoving a one-sided and dangerous approach down the throats of education backers. I'd pretty pretty dug in too if I was trying to have a dialogue, was blown off and then was told the only idea is one the one you hate.

Cap is just the first step... (4.00 / 1)
... and definitely not the only idea on the table.  As the Suozzi Commission and Gov. Paterson have said, they need to get this in place first and then work on a more meaningful circuit breaker program than the outdated (IT-214) remnant now in place.  

[ Parent ]
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