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NY-26: More On Davis And His Immigration Problem

by: robert.harding

Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 14:22:12 PM EDT


One of the things missed in the earlier mention of the Buffalo News piece centering on Jack Davis' "Heritage of our Fathers" speech was that Davis, later in the article, actually said he doesn't believe anymore that a takeover of states in the southwestern United States will happen with a war.

From the article:

"I think they'll do it without a civil war," he said. "They'll take control of the state governments and start voting themselves anything they want."

So instead of a civil war, they will (according to Davis) take over the state governments and give themselves what they want.

What we also can't overlook is the response to these comments. Jon Powers' campaign manager John Gerken said, "This is probably why his handlers won't let him debate and hide him from the press." Alice Kryzan termed the remarks as "wrong and offensive."

But it was this comment that perhaps the best response to Davis' words:

Meanwhile, a top official at the National Council of La Raza, the nation's leading Hispanic organization, termed Davis' comments "extremely offensive."

"He's feeding an environment of intolerance that doesn't distinguish between legal and illegal immigrants," said Clarissa Martinez, director of immigration and national campaigns for the organization. "He's presenting our whole community as invaders - people who want to take over the country."

Agreed. The problem is that Davis is lumping all immigrants into one group. That is, I would contend, the problem with all of the anti-immigration people in this country, including one of Jack Davis' favorite TV personalities Lou Dobbs. Instead of separating legal from illegal, they just lump them all into one group: Illegal immigrants.

Also, yesterday I wrote about Davis creating his own party - "Save Jobs and Farms." Read this part of the article and you tell me whose side Davis is on:

Many Western New York farmers rely on migrant workers from Mexico to bring in the crops.

After hearing quotes from Davis' speech, John Lincoln, the president of the New York Farm Bureau, said: "The farmers overall would be really concerned about his statement."

Told what Lincoln said, Davis replied: "He's not a regular farmer. He's one of these big guys . . . I'd call him a multinational farmer."

Lincoln, 70, is a dairy farmer with 200 head of cattle in Bloomfield, a village of 1,258 in Ontario County, southeast of Rochester. Asked if he had ever met Lincoln, Davis said he had not.

Because Lincoln didn't go along with Davis, that makes Lincoln a "multinational farmer" or "one of these big guys." Even Lincoln is a farmer.

Let's see: Owner of a factory or a farmer who just happens to head the New York Farm Bureau. Who would I talk to about farming, what's good for farmers and why migrant laborers are needed for farms?

I know the answer. So do the farmers.

Problem is that Jack Davis doesn't know the answer.

I have included the video of Davis' remarks from earlier this year below the fold for those who haven't heard them yet. If you want to see the REAL Jack Davis, he is in that video.  

robert.harding :: NY-26: More On Davis And His Immigration Problem
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Question (0.00 / 0)
"The problem is that Davis is lumping all immigrants into one group."

Why do you say that?  He is talking about "illegal" immigration in that video.


Jim... (0.00 / 0)
Not all immigrants are "illegal" immigrants. You know that. I know that.

The problem with people like Davis is that they don't separate the two. All immigrants, in their eyes, are illegal.


[ Parent ]
Davis revised his statements to include all immigrants (4.00 / 1)
    The fact that Davis said that 'they' would take control through voting means he's now including legal immigrants as well.

  Don't judge other people by your own limitations.

[ Parent ]
Amnesty (0.00 / 0)
If they got amnesty, which many did in the 80's, they'd be illegal now and legal later and could vote.  I take it Jack is against illegals now who may become legal later.  Or, he could mean they would vote even though illegal.  That's not hard.

Either way, you may disagree.  It's a legitimate policy position to take.  But I fail to see where his views are beyond the pale.

As for secession caused by changing populations, I point to Kosovo.  Most wars on the planet are caused by racial, ethnic and religious conflict.  Palestine, Iraq, Kosovo, Georgia.  

There were serious riots in France in 06 due to ethnic, religious conflict.  Is an opponent of immigration in France today a "racist" or a promoter of peace?

http://video.google.com/videop...

BTW, as long as we are talking about legitimate policy positions, what is so egregious about opposing immigration per se?


What's wrong with the American debate (4.00 / 1)
  Jim, your fear mongering is demonstrative of why so much of the public is loathe to become engaged in political change.  People like you use extreme examples to divert attention from real issues and discourage considered participation.  You use Kosovo, a situation that bears absolutely no relation to the United States, as an example in order to inflame and misdirect.  Do you honestly mean to equate Palestine, Iraq, Kosovo and Georgia with the United States?  Your examples are completely without merit.

  And, Jim, "opposing immigration per se?" is egregious.  This country was built on immigration.  

  Don't judge other people by your own limitations.


[ Parent ]
Anti-immigration folks are forgetting history (4.00 / 1)
Jim,

How was our country built?

Where did your Polish ancestors come from? How about my English ancestors? What about the Italian-Americans and Irish-Americans?

Immigration is the foundation of our nation. Without immigrants from all nations, we wouldn't be diverse. What if we decided to shut out all the Irish, Italians and Polish folks who wanted to come to America?


[ Parent ]
Not to put too fine a point on it (4.00 / 1)
  Why is it characteristic of so many pro-Davis/anti-Powers supporters to pop up immediately after a story either to flog a story or do damage control?

Username:   Jim Ostrowski
PersonId: 984
Created: Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 14:49:11 PM EDT

 Jim, you first appear here and on buffalopundit.com for the first time after Jack gets his goods in the wringer.  You offer nothing on any other race or even on this one until after a story breaks.  You people can't possibly sleep well without pharmacological aids.

  Don't judge other people by your own limitations.


Russ... (0.00 / 0)
To be fair, I don't know if Jim is necessarily pro-Davis. I know Jim. Jim knows me. I don't believe Jim to be pro-Jack Davis. I can remember writing with Jim in the fall of 2006 and Jim didn't come off as pro-Davis. Jim is a libertarian, but not the kind of libertarian that Davis poses as.  

[ Parent ]
acknowledged (0.00 / 0)
  I hadn't seen anything since March from Jim until Jack got his goodies caught.  I defer.

  Don't judge other people by your own limitations.

[ Parent ]
Jim (0.00 / 0)
is a Ron Paul Republican and I am quite sure NOT Jack Davis' biggest fan.

Behind the scenes, he is one of the most active WNYers politically. I disagree with him on a ton, but I think he really has earned respect.

I think you're too quick to apply labels here.


[ Parent ]
So.... (0.00 / 0)
I-- and a whole lot of other rural people across the state, as well as in Western NY-- know John Lincoln and his operation.  He is a relatively small dairy farmer for his part of the countryside.  Jack Davis's remarks show a total lack of understanding of farmers and farming.  And, of course, reflect a base racism and xenophobia.

It is particularly unfortunate that he is saying this things while disguised as a Democrat, because the Democratic Party's more reasonable views on immigration have been, in general, attracting more farmers to vote blue.

How many more days until this guy goes away? He's a liability.


17 (0.00 / 0)
17 days Robinia. But then he doesn't get to disguise himself as a Democrat. He gets to run on his "Save Jobs and Farms" line. What a big joke that line is, especially after this story today.  

[ Parent ]
Here's some good news (0.00 / 0)
The article in question is the most emailed at the Buffalo News site today.  I'm sure the Davis folks were hoping against hope that an article published on a Saturday wouldn't get noticed.  So much for that hope.

Kudos to Robert (0.00 / 0)
By the way, the fact that Robert Harding understood how important it was for this to be on the record about Davis way back when is what made it possible for this story to finally come out now when it can have an important impact.  As a voter from NY26, thank you, Robert!

Civility (0.00 / 0)
I am far less interested in who wins this race than I am about  having a rational discussion about war, secession, and immigration.

The leading cause of war in our time is ethnic/racial/religious conflict.  The evidence is overwhelming.  It's not my wish; it's just a fact.  I'm not a fear-mongerer.  I'm a fact-mongerer.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/ost...

Democracy, contra George Bush, is NOT the answer.  

http://mises.org/story/665

The question is, in a world where humanity has not yet figured out how to live with others different from ourselves in peace, how should we conduct ourselves insofar as immigration is concerned.

Emoting on the issue is pointless and brings us no closer to a resolution to the problem.


Wrong blog (0.00 / 0)
Hey, dude.  If that's the conversation you want to have, you are on the wrong blog.  This one is about NYS government.  We do cover NYS congressional races, because they are important to overall political activity in the state.  But, the blog focus is pretty clearly stated.  So, no more OT posts, ok?  this is just not the place for that conversation.  Check out some of the links on the right to find a more appropriate place.

[ Parent ]
Japan (0.00 / 0)
And I never said I was against immigration.  What I said was it is a respectable intellectual position to oppose further immigration.

I don't believe Japan has immigration as we know it.  What are they, 3rd largest economy on the planet?

We have 300,000,000 people now.  In 1776, we had 3,000,000.

If we never let another human in, qua citizen, we'd be fine.  Again, I'm not saying we should shut the door.  I'm just trying to smash some icons, cliches and slogans.  


Point? (0.00 / 0)
Japan has the 2nd largest GDP by exchange rate method.  They have the third largest (behind China) by PPP method.  Japan experiences mild immigration, mostly from Southeast Asia.  These immigrants fill non-skilled labor-intensive positions, as migrant workers typically do in many other states.  

What was the point of bringing up Japan?

The birth rate of natural born U.S. citizens has dropped, in accordance with a similar drop seen throughout the developed world.  This rate is below replacement level.  Populations in many European states, Russia, and Japan have stopped expanding and are expected to contract in upcoming years.  This obviously reduces GDP.  Such a contraction will not occur in the U.S. due to an increasing population derived from a net gain in immigration.  (There has been a recent push in Japan, spurred by the rapidly aging Japanese population and the dwindling number of ethnic Japanese within the working age population, to open up its immigration policies to allow more workers to come in to the country.)  

What was the point of bringing up relative size of the economy?


[ Parent ]
Jim's analogy (0.00 / 0)
The analogy is faulty in so many ways, but the most obvious is that in 1776 we had 13 colonies, and in 2008 we have 50 states.  360,000 square miles in 1776, and 830,000 by the end of the Revolutionary War.  

Today, the US has 3,537,441 square miles.  

Buffalopundit  blog at WNYMedia.net


[ Parent ]
Immigration (0.00 / 0)
No one has explained why we need more people.  We don't.  So, if one were to say, close the borders to new citizens, that's a plausible policy position.  You may think we need more people, fine.  That's also plausible.

My point with Japan was that that's an insular country with little immigration of new citizens and they are doing fine.  (They would be doing much better with a freer economy but that's another argument.)

Only in a welfare state such as ours do we need more tax slaves to pay for the campaign promises of dead politicians like FDR and LBJ and Ronald Reagan.

The fact the native Americans are at negative population growth does not imply the need for more immigrants.  It could also imply the need to get rid of the welfare state.  It could also imply the need to cut taxes to reduce the costs of having more children.  Some think Americans should have more children.  Some don't.  These are all reasonable, plausible views to be debated calmly and without insults or silly accusations of racism or white supremacy.


Can't be done (0.00 / 0)
First of all, there are too many immigrants adding to our wealth as a nation, economically, culturally, scientifically and socially.  Closing our borders, even assuming we could do it without enormous expenditures, would cost us.

Second, the cost in foreign relations would be enormous.  Trade barriers would go up, reducing our ecomony.  Our ability to convince other countries to go along with many of our foreign policy goals (even the good ones) would evaporate.

Then there is the direct cost of closing the borders.  Try calculating what it would take to have armed guards along both borders with Canada and Mexico, and Coast Guard patrols along both coasts -- not to mention Alaska, Hawaii, and our several territories.  In the word of that famous Brooklynite, fuggedaboudit!

In short, trying to eliminate immigration is foolish, self-defeating, and practically impossible.  Let's try something else.


[ Parent ]
good arguments (0.00 / 0)
You made several good points, hard to argue with, and no insults.

As hard as it is to stop illegal immigration, it is possible to stop legal immigration.  That just requires pens and paper.

And one could well say that I'd rather have a poorer but less crowded and less diverse nation than a wealthier, more crowed and more diverse one.

And free trade is a different issue.  

What I find fascinating about this whole issue is the hidden agendas that so many have that they are unwilling to disclose for one reason or another.

Example, Democrats rarely admit they love open borders because they expect the newbies to register Dem.



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