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Siena Polls: How Seriously Should We Take These Results?

by: robert.harding

Wed Sep 24, 2008 at 18:44:29 PM EDT


The Siena polls released today have created quite the buzz. No one said this New York State Senate fight would be easy, but it certainly is quite intriguing. These polls showed that these races are going to be very competitive in some places and not-so competitive in others.

But how seriously should we take these polls? Let's use this disclaimer from the poll to get this analysis started:

These SRI surveys were conducted from September 11-17, 2008 by telephone calls to likely registered voters in each State Senate district.  For the 3rd SD, 405 voters were called, with a margin of error of + 4.9 percentage points.  For the 7th SD, 402 voters were called, margin of error + 4.9.  For the 15th SD, 401 voters were called, margin of error + 4.9.  For the 48th SD, 437 voters were called, margin of error + 4.7.  For the 56th SD, 429 voters were called, margin of error + 4.7. For the 61st SD, 450 voters were called, margin of error + 4.6.  Data was statistically adjusted by respondent age - and in the 3rd SD, party - to match likely voters.

Phillip mentioned the high margin of error earlier. I would also like to point out that only 400-plus voters were surveyed in each district. That is a very small sample when you take into consideration how many voters each senate district contains.

There also some questions I had after looking at the crosstabulations for each poll. Take SD-56's crosstabs, for example. Sen. Joe Robach had a favorable rating in Greece/Parma of 71 percent. That is Robach's turf, but 71 percent still seems high to me considering Rick Dollinger had a 56 percent favorable rating on his turf in Brighton. Those numbers tell me that when they conducted this poll and especially when they called voters in Greece, they called more Republicans than Democrats. That Greece/Parma portion of the poll just seems to be inflated to me. This race isn't a double-digit race. We are talking single-digits, if not a dead heat.

The SD-3 crosstabs also boggle my mind. Trunzo is viewed favorably by 54 percent of Democrats? Really? That seems very high to me, especially since this guy is in hiding somewhere. Also, Trunzo is viewed more favorably than Brian Foley in Foley's hometown of Brookhaven. That doesn't sound right to me. And Trunzo is viewed more favorably among people ages 18 to 34? I'll have to take you word for it.

I will echo what Phillip said earlier and that is take these results with a grain of salt. Overall, I think SD-15 and SD-61 are about right. It would make sense that both of those races are tied at the moment. I do think SD-3 is much closer than that and I would even bet Foley is leading. The SD-56 poll also doesn't show how close that race truly is. Again, it depends on your sample. If your sample leans one way or another, that's the way the poll will lean. I'm not accusing Siena of anything (they do great work there) but the sample you have is the sample you work with.

What the Siena polls did tell us today is that we have a fight on our hands. But it also gave the Republicans a nice warning shot across the bow. We are coming for them with everything we have. To think, we could have four races (SD-3, SD-15, SD-56 and SD-61) in play and the Republicans are spending their resources in two races (SD-7 and SD-48) where our incumbent senators are up by double-digits.

November 4 is going to be very, very good for us. But we still need to work hard. There are other races throughout the state we should keep an eye on and work just as hard in. This election is ours for the taking. So let's take it.  

robert.harding :: Siena Polls: How Seriously Should We Take These Results?
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God you're an idiot. (0.00 / 0)
I would also like to point out that only 400-plus voters were surveyed in each district. That is a very small sample when you take into consideration how many voters each senate district contains.

Please take statistics 101.

Until then, you're making people stupider by being wrong out loud.

thanks,

Steve


i agree with what i think you are saying (4.00 / 1)
about sample size, but it's not an excuse to act like a douchebag.

i think there are legitimate questions about the methodology of these polls. Bouldin has a good first whack at it here. the sample sizes are small and they yield a rather high MoE, but i think they are sufficient to get a much better snapshot of these races than we are used to getting, which is nothing, as these races are rarely publicly polled, especially this early.


TODAY is day one. It always is.


[ Parent ]
Beyond Michaels excellent points on the sample size and MOE (0.00 / 0)
The thing that smacks my eyes is looking at the SD level Presidential preference and seeing an average of some 15% undecided.  I have not seen a national level poll that shows such a huge undecided for President this late in September.  It puts everything else in question for me.  On SD3 it has some meaningful numbers, down by only six with an incumbent well under 50 is very bad news for Trunzo.  It shows Foley needs to get his name and message out in Islip a bit better where he is least known. The large no opinion of Trunzo on the Islip side indicates that large demographic changes in the Islip area.  Overall, with our two top challengers Foley and Dollinger races having longterm incumbents under 50 and behind by single digits where undecideds break perhaps 3 to 1 for the challengers as a rule of thumb and with all 30 Democratic incumbents safe and Mesi and Addabbo tied with Maltese down at 42% after all these years, I am very optimistic we are where we want to be at this time.

[ Parent ]
This is one of those things that (0.00 / 0)
I hear ALL the time and its just a bad argument; after 35 years it gets under my skin, much like when a Republican President says that something is true simply because he said it.

[ Parent ]
No need for name calling (0.00 / 0)
It's not like persuadable voters come here.

I generally disdain public polling because of the breathlessness associated with the analysis from those who like the data.  But there are some signs of concern in this data, primarily around the fact that the Democrats aren't particularly strong in what is clearly a change year.

Aubertine is Aubertine - but he may be the outlier.  But the rest of the races concern me, even Johnson.  Remember he "only" has one line, while Donno has three, and this poll, at least, presents the argument that his lead is a function of better name ID than Donno - which is something Donno controls.  Word is Skelos is hot to whack Johnson - could be an interesting play there.


[ Parent ]
I did take statistics... (0.00 / 0)
I was an economics and finance major prior to switching to political science. My argument isn't about statistics. My argument is about WHO Siena polled, which isn't a statistical argument at all. If you poll 400 people and your sample has more people from Greece than Brighton, for example, then of course this poll will go for Robach. That's all I was saying. Of course, Siena didn't show us the numbers (at least that I saw) about how many people they polled from each part of these districts. So all we can do is speculate.

To be frank, I'm sick of dealing with the idiots from New York who would rather insult people than debate. I don't care if you disagree with me or not, but my opinion is my opinion. I never said people have to like it. But respecting it shouldn't be too trying of a task for you and others here. If it is too difficult for you, go somewhere else. Or better yet, keep it to yourself.


[ Parent ]
The fact they broke it out regionally (0.00 / 0)
Would indicate it is appropriately weighted.  But you initially made a different point - about how they may have oversampled Republicans in Greece just because Robach's support was higher than you thought it should be.  You now say you meant that they oversampled Greece relative to Brighton, which is a completely different point of speculation on your part, but perhaps a legitimate inquiry to direct to the people at Siena.

You also stated:

I would also like to point out that only 400-plus voters were surveyed in each district. That is a very small sample when you take into consideration how many voters each senate district contains.

I think that is the "argument" that Stephen was critiquing (although he didn't need to be insulting).  Of course, that's what polls do.  The only real limitations of a 400 person sample is when you start getting down into smaller groups, the MOE expands.  Larger overall sample sizes can give you a greater degree of accuracy when looking at subgroups for persuasion or mobilization.

Again, a poll is just a poll, and these numbers are already stale.


[ Parent ]
Robach's support is way too high in Greece... (0.00 / 0)
I'm sorry, but he isn't going to win with 71 percent of the vote there. He will win Greece (unless something magical happens) but there is no way he will win with 71 percent of the vote there. That's not my opinion. That's the facts. That is why I said what I said. My thought process didn't change.

Are these polls better than nothing? I guess. Siena certainly did a great service by doing these. But there are plenty of flaws in them. That's all I was saying.

I have said it on here before and I'll say it again: The only poll that matters is the one on Election Day. I have never been a huge fan of polling and, oddly enough, that disdain for polling evolved from my statistics class. Maybe I learned too much for my own good.  


[ Parent ]
the real problem (0.00 / 0)
With early cycle polls (which these are for an State Senate race) is that name recognition trumps everything else.  

So all of these polls probably look better for the incumbents than what the actual vote will be.  


one more thing (0.00 / 0)
About sample size.  The size of the district is irrelevant.  

The margin of error is always simply

100% divided by the squareroot of the sample size.  

It doesn't matter how big the district is.  


[ Parent ]
Trouble for Mesi (0.00 / 0)
Even those most generous results aren't going to put Mesi down by two points in Genesee County, Clarence and Newstead, if the margin is 15, he will be in good shape. The lead in the Tonawandas isn't bad, but it needs to be around 15 for him to win the seat. The real problem is he is losing Amherst, a Dem can't win this seat without winning Amherst.

Mesi's lead is also a function of his name id, right now nearly 2/3rds of his voters don't know Ranzenhofer yet, only 1/3rd of Ranzenhofers voters don't know Mesi.


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