I'm Going to be Blunt

The potential defectors (4.00 / 7)

This is shocking.  I cannot believe that NYC area Democratic State Senators would be so foolish and short sighted as to try something like this.  These are not upstate districts!  

We need to drive any defectors out of our legislature.  I pledge my time, whatever organizing skills I possess, and $10,000.00 of my own funds as seed money to further any such effort.    

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by: NYTrialman @ Wed Nov 05, 2008 at 17:48:58 PM CST

I second your pledge (4.00 / 2)

And I feel many, many other activists will also.  

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by: Roatti @ Wed Nov 05, 2008 at 18:01:24 PM CST

[ Parent ]

$6500 (4.00 / 4)

Against these guys if they do it. I'll actually be able to afford it by then.

But they won't do it.

Will they?

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by: Amherst Guy @ Wed Nov 05, 2008 at 18:11:07 PM CST

[ Parent ]

This is New York (4.00 / 2)

Anything truly fucked up is possible.

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by: Andrew C. White @ Wed Nov 05, 2008 at 18:53:59 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Thank you Roatti (4.00 / 3)

As it is I think we should look at primary challengers for all four of these guys, but ESPECIALLY if they jump caucus and support Skelos.  That's just absurd.  It's time to move from more democrats to better democrats.

"Never be afraid to stand with the minority when the minority is right, for the minority which is right will one day be the majority."


-William Jennings Bryan

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by: BingChester @ Wed Nov 05, 2008 at 17:56:09 PM CST

Thank YOU, Bingchester (4.00 / 2)

I'm even willing to even cut them a deal to not support challengers if they vote for Smith.  

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by: Roatti @ Wed Nov 05, 2008 at 18:02:40 PM CST

[ Parent ]

You're kinder than I (4.00 / 5)

I guess I would go along with that half-heartedly but I'm sick of these "moderates" mucking up reform.  New York deserves reform, and I'm tired of Democrats standing it its way.

"Never be afraid to stand with the minority when the minority is right, for the minority which is right will one day be the majority."


-William Jennings Bryan

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by: BingChester @ Wed Nov 05, 2008 at 18:04:05 PM CST

[ Parent ]

these are opportunists, not moderates (4.00 / 5)

Other than Diaz's abortion and gay positions (extreme conservative), these guys aren't about philosophical differences, they're about politcal me, me, me. Our own mini-me's of Joe Lieberman. They should be primaried out irrespective of how they vote on this.

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by: jacksonian dem @ Wed Nov 05, 2008 at 18:30:07 PM CST

bingo. (4.00 / 2)

they are simply looking for the best deal. ideology ain't got anything to do with it.

TODAY is day one. It always is.

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by: phillip anderson @ Wed Nov 05, 2008 at 18:41:48 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Yep, precisely. (4.00 / 2)

I'm figuring they are looking for money.  Kruger's been doing that for years, and getting it, too. Oink.

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by: robinia @ Wed Nov 05, 2008 at 19:38:42 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I think it is time (4.00 / 3)

to research the archane and byzantine laws and procedures of the New York State Senate and New York State Election law to see what sorts of options might be available regarding recall, impeachment, removal, etc.

This is an outrage!

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by: Andrew C. White @ Wed Nov 05, 2008 at 18:56:29 PM CST

Election Law (4.00 / 3)

Election Law linky goodness

Senate Rules and State Constitution

Any lawyers care to take a whack at it?

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by: Andrew C. White @ Wed Nov 05, 2008 at 19:00:57 PM CST

No Recall Provisions (4.00 / 1)

in NY.

Impeachment isn't for legislative branch officials.

There do not appear to be provisions for internal remval, just censure and stripping of committee assignments.

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by: Amherst Guy @ Wed Nov 05, 2008 at 20:19:37 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Diaz & Espada are just crooks (4.00 / 3)

and I mean that literally. idictable steal from the trough crooks.

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by: DrSteveB @ Wed Nov 05, 2008 at 20:05:26 PM CST

true, but (4.00 / 4)

Espada got there because he primaried an already-indicted Dem.

I'm not sure who decided it was a great idea for Efrain Gonzalez to run despite the indictment, or why Espada was the only one to primary him.

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by: simonstl @ Wed Nov 05, 2008 at 20:20:49 PM CST

[ Parent ]

agreed 100% (4.00 / 4)

that said, i just feel so bad for the people of the bronx. they are so poorly represented from congress on down.

someone once described the bronx machine to me thusly: "they probably aren't organized enough for RICO. pity, that."

TODAY is day one. It always is.

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by: phillip anderson @ Wed Nov 05, 2008 at 20:27:31 PM CST

[ Parent ]

The Bronx (4.00 / 2)

is really a banana republic when it comes to machine politics.  It's really, really sad.

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by: Roatti @ Wed Nov 05, 2008 at 20:31:24 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Yep. (4.00 / 1)

And, gotta say, that it makes a great poster child for the "you don't want upstate to be ruled by those crooked NYC politicians, do you?" line that the Repubs use up here in the boonies.  Can't the neighbors DO SOMETHING about it?

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by: robinia @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 07:27:23 AM CST

[ Parent ]

We're trying! (0.00 / 0)

that's the best answer I can give you :(

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by: Roatti @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 08:23:41 AM CST

[ Parent ]

But the upstate Republicans are doin' the bribin'.... (4.00 / 1)

Double standard for crookedness, eh?

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by: neroden @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 14:49:02 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Are you fucking kidding me? (4.00 / 1)

This is ri-goddam-diculous.

A primary challenger should be announced for each of these fuckers the minute they do the deed.

In fact, why wait? Good, quality Dems should announce their intentions to primary these bastards NOW. And every Dem in the legislature should stand behind them the minute they do it.

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by: PistolPetey @ Wed Nov 05, 2008 at 20:52:16 PM CST

In the meantime..... (4.00 / 2)

As an attorney who has been around a while, I can state with full confidence that, unfortunately, there is absolutely no legal or judicial way of dealing with these assholes (a legal term of art).  

NY does not have any form of recall election, and there is no actionable "fraud" involved, other than the obvious moral and political fraud which these actions would perpetrate.

Aside from obviously looking around for the best possible primary challengers, I think that over the course of the next two years we should commit ourselves to having at least one of us attend each and every public event these cretins attend, for the purpose of displaying a tastefully designed sign displaying the word "Traitor!".    

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by: NYTrialman @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 05:07:26 AM CST

Outrage is fine but what should Smith do now? (4.00 / 1)

First, that this happened is not surprising.  These four have a history of 'footsie' with the Republicans.  Outrage is fine but you're talking two (tough) years from now and these threats won't impact them at all. (no offense,just my assessment)

Should Smith "...dance with the devil in the pale moonlight?"  That depends on what they want and how much he can give without undermining himself, the rest of his conference, and his agenda.  While it would be very satisfying to tell them to stuff it because giving in to an extortionist means that the payoffs encourage more of the same, a lot is at stake. You can bet the Senate Republicans will wreck this state rather than face up to the fiscal crisis we're in.  Also, a Democratic Senate means that the Governor could clean house and get new appointments approved without having to bow to the Senate like Spitzer did; he could appoint real progressives to the PSC, for example.  

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by: newtham @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 07:42:08 AM CST

If they ask for "free votes" (4.00 / 1)

Tell them they can have them.  Diaz can vote against gay marriage and so forth as much as he likes.

If they ask for money, frankly it depends on how much and what for -- probably give it to them, but if it starts going into the tens of billions, stop.  Frankly their districts probably have some public works projects which actually need to get done, and if it went to that, it would be fine.

If they try to sabotage the legislative structural reforms we've been demanding, then to hell with them.  That is non-negotiable.

I don't know what else they could ask for.

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by: neroden @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 14:45:06 PM CST

[ Parent ]

what they could ask for (0.00 / 0)

The key to this is the Governor.  He has the resources to make promises to bring them into the fold much like Pataki did when he orchestrated Bruno's coup that deposed Marino: jobs, capital projects and brokering leadership positions and committee assignments with Smith.

"Have you ever danced with the devil in the pale moonlight?"

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by: newtham @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 16:05:27 PM CST

[ Parent ]

blunt (4.00 / 3)

I'M going to be blunt:  As the economy spirals downward we're going to see a lot more of this sort of political instability.  The people down four slots on the political food chain will begin fighting with the people three slots down.  Really, has there been any sense of party purpose in the NY Dem party for the last, oh, 30 years?!  The entire Democratic polity is fragmented, making the gloats of NYS GOP demise awfully premature.  At least their problems are not about fracturing.

Better we find this out now instead of later.

Question one:  Wall Street titans are going under.  With them crippled, WHO IS IN CHARGE of this state?  Where did the power go?  This is chaos, and what we're seeing with Diaz & co. is just one symptom.  This is a signal for everyone to just go nuts and blow off whatever steam they've been keeping in for years.

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by: NYCO @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 08:04:46 AM CST

Who's really in charge? (4.00 / 2)

One of my favorite imponderable ponderables.

My best guess?  The Assembly Photographer-- constantly aware of current pecking order and who is schmoozing the biggest high-rollers.  

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by: robinia @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 09:39:42 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Start Better Democrats (4.00 / 2)

I've said that we at TAP should start a "Better Democrats" effort to support primary challengers.  The lack of infrastructure hurt Paul Newell's efforts, while Daniel Squadron created his own network to beat Connor.

Those of you willing to dedicate time and money to primary campaigns against these four; would you be willing to dedicate that same time and money to a general fund and grassroots effort against these and other Democrats?  Would you act as the seed money for a New York State Better Democrats fund?

"Never be afraid to stand with the minority when the minority is right, for the minority which is right will one day be the majority."


-William Jennings Bryan

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by: BingChester @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 09:59:18 AM CST

I will (4.00 / 1)

Who else is in?

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by: Roatti @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 11:50:28 AM CST

[ Parent ]

I'm in for time (4.00 / 2)

although I'm lacking on the "money part".

One dream is to bring Progressive Majority to New York.  They're a fabulous organization doing great work in down-ballot races in Colorado, Wisconsin, and many other states.  We could really use an entity like that in this state.

"Never be afraid to stand with the minority when the minority is right, for the minority which is right will one day be the majority."


-William Jennings Bryan

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by: BingChester @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 14:48:32 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Just about power (4.00 / 2)

All this says to me is that these 4 individuals (and I'm sure there are a few others in the state legislature) have absolutely no values or beliefs other than power. The two parties have very different platforms. You either support it or you don't. You either run on it or you don't.

All they want is power, they don't actually want to do any good for the people. I say we get them out regardless.

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by: AlteredAlbanian @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 10:44:01 AM CST

Everyone needs to calm down and think a little more on this event. (4.00 / 1)

More and better Democrats? Sure!, the four should be challenged and will be but this does nothing for the next two years.  For now, the majority is everything.  Why are these four so anti Malcolm Smith?  I have read no answers here and it needs to be asked instead of assuming that their motives are an act of prostitution only.  Was this a long planned deal between the Reps and the four months made months ago in anticipation of a fallback position for what happened on Tuesday? If so then they are getting a lot offered from the Reps like committee chairs and leadership spots in the Republican Majority.  We need to talk to them and yes folks, up the anti if needed.  As mentioned by many here, theirs is not a matter of philosophy so they are not looking to hold back our progressive agenda, it is about personal gain so we find out and weigh the benefits of paying their price verses the benefits of gaining the majority.  Had we won three more seats, had a Mesi, Dollinger, Gennaro come across the line then the four never would have spoken up but I fear they are a part of a pre-arranged deal made months ago with the Republicans in the event that we only gained two or three and that is where we are.  No time to be stiff necked here on deals folks, we may well gain much more with the majority and giveaways to these three asses than by turning up our holly noses and waiting two more years.

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by: politics64 @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 11:37:19 AM CST

Them without morals get paid more than thems without, then? (4.00 / 2)

OK, I can see some pragmatism in there-- but, isn't it insidious and creeping if it's rewarded?  There are four we know about.  If those four start getting lots of perks, what keeps it from becoming eight or fourteen, or anybody who can get away with it?

As far as why we assume these guys are up to evil, well, check their reps and m.o.s, there is plenty of history there.

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by: robinia @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 12:00:40 PM CST

[ Parent ]

robinia, the deals have almost all been made. (0.00 / 0)

Phillip reports that Monsorate got the committee chair he wanted, earlier Espada and Diaz expressed their intent to support a Democratic majority.  That leaves only Carl Kruger hanging in his own silence.  Wonder what he wants?

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by: politics64 @ Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 17:35:56 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Sorry, but... (0.00 / 0)

I just detest extortion.  Can't help myself on that one. And that is my guess about Kruger.

Kruger stands to possibly lose BIG amounts of pork.  He was an oddity-- a "middle ground" between the small pork lumps that the Minority got, and the big pork lumps the Majority got.  I'm thinking that Smith might be inclined to return the favor, and leave his pork portion right about where it was.  And, he probably wants to move on up with the rest of the Dems to the Majority-sized helping of Member Items.  Just a guess.

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by: robinia @ Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 18:05:56 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I understand and agree with your disgust but we will get a lot more good (0.00 / 0)

out of the majority status than the price we just saw paid to Monsorate.  So he will chair a Latino Caucus and a Consumer Affairs committee.  OK, I can live with it but Kruger has now lost about all his negotiating ability and it sounds like from what you wrote that it could not happen to a nicer guy!

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by: politics64 @ Sat Nov 08, 2008 at 23:49:09 PM CST

[ Parent ]

More Pragmatism (0.00 / 0)

While we are speaking pragmatically, I have considering this situation in an entirely differant light.   We are in a huge mess and some really major cuts are going to be made in some very important programs.   People are going to be really pissed off!!!

Maybe its a good thing for the Repugs to have the State Senate for the next two years.... their fingerprints will be on these unpopular measures also.   It would be awful to have a majority for the next two years and then lose 4 or 5 seats in 2010.  The critical year is 2010, so we can have free reign to redraw the district lines.

Just a thought......

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by: NYTrialman @ Thu Nov 06, 2008 at 19:11:37 PM CST