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With All Due Respect, Can We Leave God Out of This?

by: robinia

Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 11:54:51 AM EST


Very likely, you, the average TAP reader, like me and most of the world, are pleased to see the Bush era drawing to a close.  I'm totally relieved that it will not be followed by an administration in which the likes of Sarah Palin is a heartbeat from the Presidency, despite my sincere hope that women will ascend to the highest governmental posts in our country in my lifetime.  Of course, I have significant differences on policy with both GW and the Winker from Wasalia.  But, I have strong opinions on policy, and there aren't many pols who I find myself in total policy agreement with... so, I am somewhat tolerant of differences in view.

There's a line in the sand for me, though, that I won't cross.  Something that makes me find a candidate for leadership dangerous and unacceptable, even if we share views on policy.  I'm completely and relentlessly consistent on this issue, which both Sarah Palin and GW Bush went over the line on: any candidate who believes that God, not the people, chose him or her to lead is, IMHO, not fit to serve in office.  Claiming to hear directly from the Divine on matters of policy and political leadership subverts democracy, I think.

Now, I was entirely consistent with my own attitude about this when considering the self-imposed plight of 3 Musketeers Gangsta Ruben Diaz.  When jmcbride wrote a diary here titled Diaz -- the anti-democrat , he quoted Diaz (from Cap Con) thus:

I have not committed myself to anybody, and my position as an ordained minister and a pastor will not allow me to support any would be leader that will bring gay marriage to the Senate floor.

jmcbride added this thought:

Diaz apparently believes his unique and short lived power should allow him to control what gets to the floor for a vote.

To which I responded:

Worse than that..  
he believes that his religion should control what gets to the floor for a vote.  While power-hungry individuals are dealt with by our constitutional democracy through the means of regular elections, control of government by religious doctrine is, actually, flat-out prohibited.

I later suggested that if Diaz's ministerial/religious duties caused a conflict with his duties as a Senator, he should resign his position as Senator.  Still feel that way.  So, I was very pleased when Malcolm Smith re-thought his previous deal-making position on this issue, as per his press release:

Furthermore,  real reform cannot and should not ever include limiting the civil rights of any New Yorkers. Those issues must be part of the legislative process.

Way to support the Constitution and fulfill your oath of office, Malcolm.  Not that I expect theocrat Diaz to back down.  

But, recently Smith said something to make me worry about how well he really understands this... (on the flip).

robinia :: With All Due Respect, Can We Leave God Out of This?
So, below is a Malcolm Smith quote from an interview that Irene Jay Liu of Cap Con had with him while he was returning to NYC after his press conference.  To give it some context, this has been one hell of a week for Smith, and Lui approached him, presumably on the train, where escape was impossible, without an appointment, after a stressful press conference... and asked:

How have you felt about this roller coaster of a ride so far since you won the election?

A very personal question, about his feelings.  Frankly, one criticism I have about Irene, as compared to the other TU Albany-scene reporters is that she is a bit too personal touchy-feely for my taste-- ya know, it should not be People magazine.  So, given this, I want to be not too judgmental of Smith's answer, but, it does worry me-- has echoes of GW consulting with the Supreme Being on the White House batphone about the Axis of Evil.

I rest on my faith. And my faith tells me that God doesn't give you more than you can handle and so that is where I'm at and I believe that I'm in the place in my life where I'm supposed to be, and I will fulfill my purpose.

Malcolm, or his spokespeople, or others: can you clarify?  Did God "put you in the place you are supposed to be" as potential Majority Leader, or did the people of your district (who elected you) and your Senate colleagues (who supported you as leader)?  To whom are you ultimately responsible? Does God give you other assurances about policy issues and leadership, other than that leadership will never be more difficult than you can handle?  What if, you know, it sometimes is?  Will you ask Neil Breslin and Liz Krueger for help (they stood beside you at that press conference, after all....) or the Almighty?  And, what about that whisper I heard here around TAP that a certain politically-oriented minister, Rev. Floyd Flake, may have a lot of influence on your actions, is that true?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Now on a lighter note, if the same God that made the sunset and flowers and tropical fish and all the beauty of nature (which I don't believe, btw) were to pick leaders directly, would he pick guys who looked like these?

Photobucket

Photobucket

or, like this:

Photobucket

Photobucket

Ah, that is what makes it a poor way to choose people to govern us, though... better for this:

Photobucket

Photos: Diaz photo is from http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_... , Smith photo is from http://www.minorityreporter.ne... the Sarah Palen pics (2 more recent sampled from Vogue magazine. last from her Beauty Pageant win) are at http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...  

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I agree (0.00 / 0)
Lest we forget, it was Jesus Himself (who so many of these claim to have a personal relationship with) that said "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's."


um, are you really (0.00 / 0)
trying to get me to defend Malcolm Smith and Ruben Diaz at the same time? (And throwing in Sarah Palin just for fun?)

I understand that the language of faith doesn't go over well with folks who don't share it.  What I don't understand is why you insist on disqualifying anyone who uses it from participating in public discourse.  (That's how I'd read "not fit to serve in public office".)

Faith is not necessarily a private matter only.  If that's what motivates someone, we should hear about it.  Voters can judge politicians on all of their motivations.  Is God a part of that?  Maybe you think God should be uninvolved, but that's not a likely answer from folks who imagine God as (a) existing and (b) more than a divine clockmaker who's wandered off.

I personally find greed an unacceptable motivation, but I'm quite puzzled as to why you find faith an unacceptable motivation.


Not trying to mess with you, Simon (0.00 / 0)
Yeah, defending Diaz, Smith, Palin (and GW) all together is way too much for even your excellent talents.  My rule is NOT that somebody is unfit for office if they are religious.  Not even if they think they are "called" to public service.  My problem is Diaz's problem: when they can't put their duties to public office (to defend democracy for all of us, regardless of type of faith or lack of faith, equally) above a personal relationship that they believe they have with God that has told them they should be in charge, and make decisions based on what God tells them, not the democratic idea of majority-rule, representing the will and judgment of the people through elections of leaders.

So, no, I do not find devotion to God a reason to disqualify a leader, as long as they don't think that it gives them a special privilege or "anointing" (as per Palin) to be a leader.  Fine by me for ministers to serve.  But, GW claiming that he is the sole "decider" and has little chats w/The Man Above who tells him go get Sadam?  Not ok, very dangerous.  Admit I am super-sensitive to all this, personally, due to too much close contact with fundamentalist right-winger relatives-- who loved Bush for that very same attitude.


[ Parent ]
to clarify (0.00 / 0)
I have no problem with anything Smith said about his faith.  That sounds perfectly health to me.  

But this from Diaz is crap:

my position as an ordained minister and a pastor will not allow me to support any would be leader that will bring gay marriage to the Senate floor.

What does religion have to do with how the state views marriage?  If Diaz doesn't want to perform marriage rituals for same sex couples, he doesn't have to, even if the bill passes.  

This isn't about religious people arguing with non-religious people.  This is about the division between state-sanctioned marriages and religious ceremonies.  I would think that a true believer would want this division to be clear as possible.


Well... (0.00 / 0)
Smith's faith may tell him that he will never get more than he can handle, but, to me, it looks objectively like he was a bit over his head last week.  I think he should have been asking some non-spiritual sources for advice and help, not figuring that God would make sure that his work was never more than he could handle alone.

But, as I mentioned, I will cut him some slack, as long as it seems like he gets it together and acts like a collaborative, democratic leader.

Although, would like more info on the Floyd Flake thing.  Have heard the good Rev speak, and don't trust him further than I could throw a big downstate megachurch.


[ Parent ]
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