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Gun Control Versus Gun Rights: Understanding Kirsten Gillibrand's Position

by: robert.harding

Fri Jan 23, 2009 at 09:53:49 AM EST


One of the big criticisms of Rep. Kirsten Gillibrand as she becomes the junior U.S. senator from New York is that she is pro-gun rights. Gillibrand has received an "A" rating from the National Rifle Association and her pro-gun stance has already drawn criticism from Rep. Carolyn McCarthy, who is a well-known gun control activist and member of Congress who lost her husband in the Long Island Railroad massacre 15 years ago. McCarthy has even threatened to primary Gillibrand in 2010 if she is indeed the one being appointed by Governor David Paterson.

But this is an issue that is very different in rural and urban areas. In rural areas, guns aren't associated with violence. Guns are associated with sport. I hail from a very rural county where hunting is a family event for some. I can remember only two murders that occurred involving a gun during my lifetime here. So in the rural areas of this state, guns aren't used for violent purposes. Guns are used for hunting and for sport.

In urban (and even suburban) areas, the issue is much different. I live an hour away from Buffalo and Rochester - two cities that have had their share of homicides involving the use of a gun. In urban areas, guns aren't associated with hunting. Instead, guns are associated with violence.

I understand where both sides are coming from because in a rural setting, this issue is a much different one than it is in the suburbs and cities.

There are some things not to like about Gillibrand's pro-gun position. Gillibrand opposes any sort of ban on the sale of semiautomatic guns or the infamous "cop-killer" bullets, according to Village Voice reporter Wayne Barrett.

What Gillibrand needs to understand is that there are people like Rep. McCarthy out there. People who have lost loved ones and friends to gun violence. There are many people like that in New York and many throughout the United States. That's why the Brady Campaign's efforts are important.

But how do we balance those efforts with protecting hunters and their right to bear arms? That is the question. Gillibrand will need to address that question if she plans on representing the interests of all New Yorkers. In cities like New York City, Buffalo, Rochester, and Syracuse, guns are a problem, not something that is used for leisure. Gillibrand will need to understand that and be prepared to have a much more moderate position on guns going forward.

You can still support gun rights for rural people who use guns only for hunting, but you need to understand that if there is a gun in New York City or Buffalo, chances are the owner of that gun isn't using it to nab a 12-point buck.  

robert.harding :: Gun Control Versus Gun Rights: Understanding Kirsten Gillibrand's Position
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I think it's an acceptable balance (4.00 / 1)
Senator Schumer is obviously in the pro-gun control camp.  Yet there's a lot of pro-gun sentiments in our state.  I think it's appropriate for New York to have two Senators of diametric opposition on this issue.

Besides, D.C. v. Heller changed a lot of the flex room on the law, so I wouldn't expect a lot of gun regulations going forward.  The one thing I would like to see is to re-consider the ban on semi-automatic weapons, as they're completely unnecessary and don't meet the same standards for the hunter argument.  If Gillibrand can come into the mainstream on that issue, I think she'll do fine for the state on guns.


Semi-automatics. (0.00 / 0)
One, the Assault Weapons Ban wasn't a ban on semi-automatics, it banned mostly certain features that were found on knockoff versions of military weapons. Grenade launcher mounts, barrel shrouds, pistol grips, etcetera. Nothing that affected the functionality of the weapon.

Second, there are very clear arguments in favor of semi-automatic rifles from a hunting perspective. Ask a left-hander who's tried to operate a bolt rifle.

In any event I'm not sure it matters, since rifles of any description are used in about 2% of violent crimes. If you want to talk about gun crimes, "assault weapons" are irrelevant: the most commonly used gun in crimes is a revolver.  


[ Parent ]
FYI (4.00 / 2)
Howard Dean received similar ratings from the NRA...and a single issue in a rural district shouldn't keep us from looking at all the good points a Senator Gillibrand would offer the State.


We've got some work ahead of us.

Yes, Howard Dean did... (4.00 / 1)
But Vermont isn't New York. In Vermont, you are talking about a fairly rural state as a whole. New York is a blend of rural areas, suburban areas and urban areas.

Is it Gillibrand's defining issue? Definitely not. I never said that. But it is something that she is going to have to work on. Talking to people in Buffalo, New York City or Rochester and saying that you are pro-gun isn't going to fly. Not when some of their neighbors might have been victims of gun violence.

And this issue isn't limited to rural districts. She is taking on a job that will mean she represents all of New York. As I said in my post, being pro-gun is a very good trait to have in the rural areas. But in the urban (and even suburban) areas, it's not necessarily the stance they want to hear. When they think of guns, they aren't thinking of deer season. They are thinking of violence on their streets and in their neighborhoods.  


[ Parent ]
Wrong on guns - wrong for New York State (4.00 / 1)
Being in favor of no background checks, semiautomatic weapons, and "cop-killer" bullets is not a difference of opinion; it is a belief in quick, unfettered access to weapons which historically help tear apart poorer urban and suburban areas.

The argument that a balance needs to be reached to protect the rights of rural gun useres runs both ways. Why are not rural gun owners required to follow laws which help protect innocent men, women, and children in more populated areas? Hunters do not need semiautomatic guns and "cop-killer" bullets to get that "whascally wabbit", and a day or two for a background check serves the greater good, whether upstate or down. Gillinbrand doesn't see it that way - getting an 'A' rating from the NRA should set off bells for NY progressives.

Rep. Gillinbrand's stance on guns is wrong for New York and wrong for progressive politics. Governor Paterson chose the wrong person; hopefully a more qualified, progressive candidate will emerge to take the seat in 2010.

Tax the Church.


Great post, Furious Dee. (4.00 / 1)
Exactly: Hunters don't need assault rifles. And they can still hunt (though I find the practice abhorrent) after going through some common-sense procedures.

But Gillibrand has staunchly toed the line on all gun issues (ergo the 100% rating), not merely stood up for hunters or whatever.

So this diary above strikes me as a rather elaborate excuse dodging the actual substance of gun control issues, and how KG has approached it.


[ Parent ]
Killing for fun is not "sport" (0.00 / 0)
...just to clarify...just because some people claim that killing living creatures just for the fun of it, with guns or anything else, is a so-called "sport," that doesn't make it true.

Killing living creatures just for the sheer "fun" of it is actually very unsportsmanlike in my book.


I don't know anyone... (0.00 / 0)
That hunts for the "fun" of it. If you have ever been hunting (which by your tone, I doubt it), then you would know that there are some days where you might not even pull the trigger or take a shot with your bow.

I know plenty of hunters. They don't go out in the woods and fire their weapons at the first sight of a deer or other animal that they can hunt. You want to make sure that you are shooting at a real target and that you have a clear shot. Unloading a few rounds into a deer isn't what you are taught to do as a hunter.


[ Parent ]
killing for fun (0.00 / 0)
is almost by definition of what hunting is...people who...just for their own recreational pleasure and enjoyment...want to kill living creatures. Hunting is killing for fun.

And while members of my family have been hunters, no, this particular individual would never have made the decision to go out to kill living creatures just for the "fun" of it. In fact, to me, there must be something psychologically wrong with people who feel the need to kill living creatures as a form of enjoyment/recreation/pleasure/fun.  


[ Parent ]
You can have your definition... (0.00 / 0)
And I will have mine. I know hunters who hunt for sport. If it was truly "killing for fun", wouldn't they be shooting at anything they spotted moving in the woods? The people I know don't hunt like that. They wait for "the one." They could go out in the woods all season and not fire a single shot.

You might see things that way, but unfortunately, that's not how it goes.  


[ Parent ]
it's exactly how it goes.. (0.00 / 0)
...you may not like the fact...and other hunters may prefer to couch their killing activity in terms of being some kind of "sport," but going about stalking and killing a living creature...just for the recreational...enjoyment (i.e. fun) of it is exactly what it is. You're telling me these folks are stalking and killing these creatures for some reason, but they do not enjoy it? Why would someone be choose to hunt (i.e. kill)if they don't enjoy it?

[ Parent ]
Speaking only for my area, a lot of hunters use the meat. (4.00 / 1)
It's a cheap way to fill the freezer for a lot of working-class Joes.  

[ Parent ]
using the meat.... (0.00 / 0)
...is significantly different than having to kill in order to eat. Two totally different things. Do they need to kill in order to eat and survive?  

[ Parent ]
The hunters on my property (4.00 / 1)
...kill deer that otherwise eat my trees, shrubs, flowers and vegetables, as well as endanger local citizens driving cars (deer overpopulation causes ever-increasing car-deer collisions).  They feed me and my family, as well as themselves and their families.  You have not offered to do so.  Please be in touch with your counter-offer of food and habitat protection, and I will consider it.

BTW-- we also support on our property a large number of coyotes, which also share in the control of deer (and other predators).  No word available on whether or not they enjoy hunting, but they definitely eat the meat.... mostly the young, old and injured deer (and many other smaller animals).


[ Parent ]
She has a lot to learn (4.00 / 1)
When Hillary Clinton decided to run for the Senate, she went on a "listening tour," focusing mostly upstate where her support would be weakest.  Perhaps Senator-to-be Gillibrand should come to NYC for a similar tour.

There are a lot of issues that get short shrift in virtually every national election, and most of them are about the needs of cities.  Over 50 million Americans live in just 60 cities.*  Only one of those cities is in New York, but it is by far the largest.  Kirsten Gillibrand needs to learn about the issues that confront the eight-million-plus new constituents she will have.

"Senator Gillibrand ... come on down!"

* U.S. Census estimates from July 1, 2007, available at http://www.census.gov/popest/cities/tables/SUB-EST2007-01.csv.


The debate is so warped. (0.00 / 0)
So the problem with the "gun debate" is that both sides are advocating stupid positions.

Many of the Brady Campaign proposals are essentially worthless, but create massive hassles for law-abiding people who want guns for whatever reason (heck, even target shooting).  Banning guns from specific areas simply doesn't work.  Banning particular types of guns does very little good either (you can kill plenty of people even with a revolver, and reload it very quickly).

Meanwhile, the NRA demands that everyone have the right to walk into a store and buy any gun and ammo, no questions asked -- and the right to hide their guns at all times.  (What ever happened to "open carry"?)

Currently it is both too hard for responsible people to get and keep guns for legitimate purposes and too easy for irresponsible people to get and keep guns for illegitimate purposes.  The situation is just STUPID.

Guns need to be licensed and regulated like motor vehicles (another very deadly product).  More dangerous guns should require more stringent licensing (just like commercial trucks require a special license).

The only state I know of which requires you to pass a course in gun safety and handling before issuing a gun license -- is Florida.  New York, for example, doesn't!  And of course the NRA, despite giving the courses itself and enouraging people to take them, doesn't want them to be mandatory! WTF?!?

Obviously, all fifty states should have the rule requiring a gun safety and handling course before gun possession.  That would, by itself, eliminate most of the accidental deaths and injuries.  

Add a mandatory background check to the gun licensing process (opposed by the NRA) to eliminate people with records of criminal violence, or with mental illnesses which render them a danger to themselves or others.  Require proof of licensing in order to obtain guns and ammunition, and you have the basics of a relatively sound system.  (Obviously there have to be some special rules allowing people to borrow guns when at gun ranges learning gun safety in order to pass the safety courses.)

But neither "side" has been working towards anything looking vaguely like this.  The NRA continues to indulge in fantasies that giving guns to untrained people will help them "protect" themselves (they're more likely to shoot themselves in the foot); the Brady Campaign continues to imagine that "gun free school zones" will have any effect whatsoever other than annoying hunters driving past the school.  Sigh.


Second Amendment (0.00 / 0)
The right to bear arms has little to do with hunting and lots to do with deterring federal government tyranny.  To say one would protect the rights of hunters but otherwise restrict guns is to essentially erase the Second Amendment.

Scalia:

"If . . . the Second Amendment right is no more than the right to keep and use weapons as a member of an organized militia . . . that is, the organized militia is the sole institutional beneficiary of the Second Amendment's guarantee-it does not assure the existence of a "citizens' militia" as a safeguard against tyranny."

Kirsten is a very smart lawyer and must know that.  Don't cave, Kirsten, to the urban paranoia of Manhattanites.


Jim... (0.00 / 0)
Of course, when the Second Amendment was installed in the Constitution, the weapon of choice was not a Glock. We won the war against Britain with muskets and cannons, hardly the type of weaponry we see now.

The intent of the Second Amendment was, as you say Jim, to deter the federal government from tyranny. The Second Amendment is not in place to enable criminals to arm themselves to commit violent acts. You might think that it is "urban paranoia," but violent acts using firearms happy often in urban settings.

I believe in gun control when it comes to ensuring that people who shouldn't have guns (i.e. mentally ill individuals) do not end up possessing them. But I also believe in protecting the rights of citizens who wish to possess a gun for protection or if they would like to hunt.

There is common ground on this issue. Once we find it, we will all be better off.  


[ Parent ]
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