How do we reach more people?

this is a subject i think about (0.00 / 0)

all the time and i've got some ideas. this really is something we as a community should be talking about and i want to thank you for posting this. i'm going to FP this after the radio show.

thanks again, simon.

TODAY is day one. It always is.

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by: phillip anderson @ Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 22:05:18 PM UTC

Newspapers? (4.00 / 2)

If you want just the blog to be more widely read, I'd suggest getting the word out on the papers. Seeing as how (as the stereotype goes) more active and educated citizens read the paper in addition to / as opposed to watching TV, there's your target audience. LTE could be a good place to start.

But I think what you're trying to ask is "What should our larger PURPOSE be?"

I dunno. The key is finding a good narrative / frame, like you've said before. I know Rochester Turning (.com) had this feature where they shadowed one Congressional Representative in every town hall he had. They published the date and time, and put up clips on youtube. If you do that to State Legislators (hounding them in public meetings, mentioning your narrative frame and website every time,) that could help.

Of course, we (the readers) all have to work together to do this. New York is a big place and we can't have just NYBri and Lipris doing all the work. Maybe post the time and date of any sort of public meeting of any especially egregious Assemblyman/Senator? We could take it from there.

I write at Rochester Turning

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by: Sayhar @ Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 23:25:10 PM UTC

LTE good, video bad (0.00 / 0)

It may be effective at getting out the message, but the last thing I want is a bunch of telegenic state reps.  We have enough of that at the national level.  Following them around and reporting the findings on this blog would be good enough for me.

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by: slothlax @ Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 23:43:36 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Pardon my ignorance, but... (0.00 / 0)

what is LTE?

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by: simonstl @ Wed Mar 28, 2007 at 00:16:11 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Letter to the editor n/t (0.00 / 0)

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by: slothlax @ Wed Mar 28, 2007 at 00:42:21 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Not Telegenic. (4.00 / 1)

I'm thinking of a video camera more as a way of keeping people on the record. Think Macaca.

I write at Rochester Turning

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by: Sayhar @ Wed Mar 28, 2007 at 03:32:48 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

I understand that aspect (0.00 / 0)

and transparancy is a good thing.  But national politics, where everyone is camera-centric, is not what I want state politics to become.  I suppose its inevitable though.

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by: slothlax @ Sat Mar 31, 2007 at 21:15:01 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I like the idea of encouraging visits (4.00 / 1)

to various Assembly and Senate functions.  The ones here are very lightly attended, and it would be good to get more people there for whatever cause.

Video is interesting, and I've thought about getting a super-cheap video camera, but so far I've stuck with the less intrusive (well, sort of) camera and voice recorder.  I need to do a lot more research on getting sound and maybe video clips posted.  Takes time to do it right, too.

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by: simonstl @ Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 23:59:42 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Active party members focus on the county level and below (4.00 / 1)

That's where the opportunities are for active party members.  Take Syracuse, for instance.  A local party member can be active on many campaigns for school board, common council, county legislature, mayor, or county executive.  Getting the nomination, if you so choose, is not all that hard for the school board, common council and county leg seats.  There are often primaries.  And term limits for city offices help.  This fall I would be eligible to run for four separate offices and I was seriously considering one, but some developments have quashed that idea.  I will, however, be active on some campaign this fall, probably county exec.

These seats are all held by people that live right here, the decisions are made within the county (all within walking distance for me), and the effects of patronage and power are felt by a much wider swath of people than state level positions.  I know plenty of people who work for the county and city government, not to mention the schools.

Why mess around with ousting an incumbant who is most likely one of your county party's elders?  Who really cares about what happens in Albany anyway, since all the jobs are in county government?  And why work so hard to elect a state representative who is just going to listen to Sheldon Silver and Albany lobbyists, whereas local politicians are more inclined to listen to their party members?

The decisions made by state legislators just don't have as much of a direct effect on citizens as local officials.  And the scope of influencing state level office holders is much narrower for a local party member, let alone average citizen.

So there is an active and engaged group of people who work through their county committees to engage local issues.  I've neglected national politics because I think its obvious, but you have a myriad of national level interest groups and advocacy groups, not to mention an overwhelming amount of information available on national issues.  There is just a lack of critical mass at the state level to engage the average citizen. I think a lot of it is the fact that the state is involved in issues that deal with funding large systems, but the county and local governments are charged with implementing those systems.  State government is more abstract, local government more tactile.

I guess you were looking for answers, but I've only attempted to find the problem.  At least that's half that battle.

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by: slothlax @ Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 23:32:53 PM UTC

There's a lot of good here... (4.00 / 1)

It definitely makes sense for party activists to focus on seats at the county level and below - as you point out:

And why work so hard to elect a state representative who is just going to listen to Sheldon Silver and Albany lobbyists, whereas local politicians are more inclined to listen to their party members?

The Albany iceberg drives out hope for change at the state level, whereas more local politics often seems less locked up, even if/when it has its own problems. National politics is simply inescapable because of media focus as well, and you're right, we end up with "a lack of critical mass at the state level to engage the average citizen".

I also wonder if the parties are the right place for these conversations, given that each of them has a stake in the general awfulness of one of the legislative houses, and both enjoy the finger-pointing that allows.

I guess what I'm looking for is a story to break that iceberg, a way to engage political activists in terrain many of them have (often very deliberately) avoided.

Where can we find that hope?

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by: simonstl @ Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 23:55:32 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I don't know about a story (0.00 / 0)

That will be something of the moment.  You can't force it.

And while the parties as they work now are not ideal for this sort of change, they can be changed themselves.  My best suggestion is for people like those who come here to get involved in their local parties, work on those local races to build connections and credibility, but always keep tabs on the state government and don't be afraid to lose those connections and credibility with the local party when you try to oust their incumbant seator or representative.  If your party doesn't hold the seat in question, then make sure you are running cadidates that outline actual policies and reforms.  The last time my Senator was challenged, his opponent basically said "I'm running because no one else will" and that was it.  At least try.  That or run outside candidates and get a couple elected.  That would scare the pants off the state legislators (people who think they can hold this ridiculously high paying part time job for life) into doing something to bring accountability and openness to the leadership positions in both houses.

As for the site, I think the LTE sort of idea is the way to go.  Just be persistant, make the name familiar, and people will come.  Bring in the newspaper readers.  Spread the word at county committee meetings.  Give disgruntled party hacks a chance to air their grievances in a constructive way instead of going to those toxic local newspaper forums.

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by: slothlax @ Wed Mar 28, 2007 at 00:12:30 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Forcing a story (4.00 / 1)

I dunno. Story != Narrative.
Narrative is related to framing.

Right now, TAP's basic narrative is: "Our popular new governor  is being hamstrung by a corrupt the legislature."

Perhaps we need a better narrative.

I write at Rochester Turning

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by: Sayhar @ Wed Mar 28, 2007 at 03:36:02 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Value of this site (4.00 / 2)

Living on the other side of the state, I get to Albany to watch state government in action only occasionally. The value this site has to me is when someone reports on very specific happenings that aren't reported on, or are only superficially reported on elsewhere.

I think we could build the audience by reporting on a specific bill, hearing, committee meeting and then making sure that a particular interest group and its members hear about it. Something on housing that the non-profit world would be interested in, send out an email to the Rural Preservation Corporations and Neighborhood Preservation Corporations around the state referencing the posting, environmental issues - environmental groups, banking issues - fair lending groups etc.

I for one would have liked to have been a fly on the wall at the hearing on Grannis' nomination to be DEC today, the news reports on this are likely to have little specific information. In a couple of weeks there is a hearing on the credit card industry, the week after that there is one on health insurance. As we each occasionally attend things like this, can we report on them, encourage and applaud those who do report on them, and use their reporting to alert friends about the site.

People will keep coming back to the extent that we have useful, timely information that you can't get elsewhere.

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by: bankbane @ Wed Mar 28, 2007 at 00:15:24 AM UTC

All great ideas (0.00 / 0)

I suspect that showing people how the sausage is made is critical to having them take a change in sausage-makers seriously.  Kind of The Jungle for New York State politics, but built more on the raw material of lawmaking itself.

The legislators have been pretty smart about ensuring that their actual work is inaccessible; maybe they know that's a major weakness for them.

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by: simonstl @ Wed Mar 28, 2007 at 12:33:37 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

schedules (4.00 / 2)

i think it would be useful to start publishing info about these hearings.  Or at least where we find it all.  When is the credit card hearing?  If TAP can post in advance about these, perhaps people close to albany can attend and report back. 

I think part of the problem is just the lack of info about what all these legislators actually do.

The Senate does broadcast via the web.  Perhaps some of this stuff is already available?  I know spitzer also was mandating that more info be online.  Perhaps a function could be sorting through what is already available and editing it into a weekly segment?

Lipris?  You're the video person right?  How hard would this be?

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by: DIA @ Wed Mar 28, 2007 at 12:54:15 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

i am indeed (4.00 / 1)

and have been thinking about doing something very much like what you have suggested. honestly, it comes down to time.

TODAY is day one. It always is.

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by: phillip anderson @ Wed Mar 28, 2007 at 18:25:42 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Setting these things up isn't easy (4.00 / 1)

but I wonder if there's a way you could distribute that work so everyone got a smaller piece and you didn't have much to deal with?

Adopt-A-Committee?

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by: simonstl @ Wed Mar 28, 2007 at 20:30:13 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

a fine idea (0.00 / 0)

i've been trying to encourage folks to adopt their locales, their reps and senators and such. adopt a committee is an effin' great idea.

TODAY is day one. It always is.

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by: phillip anderson @ Wed Mar 28, 2007 at 21:10:49 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Such a good idea, it's been done for years (0.00 / 0)

That is definitely happening already with lots of committees and lots of groups. Some even have staff, web sites and newsletters.  The one that hired my daughter was a favorite of mine from way-back, anyway... see this.  Always a good idea to network where we can....

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by: robinia @ Thu Mar 29, 2007 at 19:56:08 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

My time in sausage-maker-city... (4.00 / 1)

...made me interested in changing processes, not people.  Simon, I can't quite get why you are so honed in on getting rid of existing legislators, rather than changing the system.  No, we don't want a system that reinforces incumbancy, it is not good.  But, I, for one, am not in favor of term limits and that sort of thing, either.  We need to dump the strong-leader system and the permanent majority.  We don't do that by focusing on replacing incumbents, as the gerrymandered districts will produce the same results over again with different players (without touching the strong leader system or the permanent majorities in each house).  If anything, the incumbents (good ones) are in a better position to risk standing up to the leaders, as they already have name recognition in their districts, and perhaps could be "safe" in their seats even without the favors of the leaders.  A newly-elected member needs those leader-bestowed and party-bestowed funds and favors much more, and usually bucks the system much less, from what I have seen.

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by: robinia @ Thu Mar 29, 2007 at 19:50:51 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Because asking for change doesn't produce change (0.00 / 0)

Simon, I can't quite get why you are so honed in on getting rid of existing legislators, rather than changing the system.

It's simple, really - legislatures don't seem to change their processes nicely when all you do is ask.

Did the legislature step up when the Brennan Report came out and say "that's a great idea! Let's implement it!" No, they didn't. They picked a few pieces that looked the least painful, implemented them sort of partially, and decided that since "reform" was in style they'd just call everything they wanted to do anyway "reform".

Both houses played pretty much the same game, I'm afraid. And have you read what your legislator keeps writing to justify the game?

Changing the game in Albany means convincing the players that they have to change the game. They've got too much invested in the current rules to do otherwise.

Doing that is hard, of course, but elections are pretty much the best way I've seen to convince politicians that it's time for change. They've rigged the system to deaden the sound of that - which might mean that any noise that actually makes it to Albany and stays loud will seem all the louder.

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by: simonstl @ Thu Mar 29, 2007 at 20:55:51 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Respectful disagreement (0.00 / 0)

Well, I understand that you think you know how this should be done.  I've changed a number of things through the political process in my life, and I never used the approach you favor, and I don't think it would work.  So, I tend to favor what I have seen work, while I see you disfavor an approach of "just ask" that never even ocurred to me to use (but maybe you tried in the past).  We will just disagree about this, then.

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by: robinia @ Thu Mar 29, 2007 at 22:42:02 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Replacing incumbents (0.00 / 0)

has worked pretty well for us in Dryden.

It does seem like contested elections are a key part of democracy in, well, a lot of place, and it seems to keep things working.

Consensus systems are great - but they require participants to share a lot more of their goals than seems likely here, and they scale very badly.  Wonderful in small groups, not so good in large.

If you don't mind my asking, how exactly do you intend to reform New York?  I know what you _don't_ want to do, but I'm not sure what path forward you're actually proposing.

Let me know!  Thanks.

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by: simonstl @ Thu Mar 29, 2007 at 22:55:23 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Brennan Center rules changes, open government (0.00 / 0)

I am in favor of "weakening" the strong leader system in the legislature through incrementally instituting the Brennan Center Report's suggested rules changes, as well as more openness in government operations.  I think we should also have more inter-departmental policy conversations (that is one reason that, this season, I have been lobbying for A04368/S02081-- a bill to establish a food policy council, that would consider food issues from a multi-disciplinary and multi-agency perspective, and would bring out-of-government professional expertise into the conversation).  I favor strict accountability for both member items (including who applied and WAS NOT funded) and both state and local economic development projects (legislative tighten-ups have been passing in recent years, and I have been lobbying for them).  I am a big fan of Brodsky's attempts to bring to light the workings of NYS's "authorities" and think there is need for major reform there, as well.  I also believe that the NYS approach to tax expenditures is thoroughly corrupt, and needs massive attention and reform.  And, capital projects (such as the NYS Food Lab which I recently diaried about) should face public scrutiny, and be placed in objectively effective locations, not in the districts of important legislators.  Corruption and conflict of interest should be pursued through a lobbying/legislative ethics board with teeth, and through the AG's office (and Soares, too).

I am also open to learning that my priorities are not as important as some other item-- but, those are my top attention-getters for NYS (along w/Bottle Bill, which Sptiz has apparently offered up as Bruno sacrifice-- I would have given him Grannis instead).

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by: robinia @ Fri Mar 30, 2007 at 00:19:12 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

That's a long list (0.00 / 0)

and I hope you get all that.

I just don't see how you plan to get it.

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by: simonstl @ Fri Mar 30, 2007 at 00:59:28 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Bingo! (0.00 / 0)

This is exactly what the citizen-advocacy groups that I work with that are successful in pushing legislative change at the state level do-- the ones I am involved in have a relatively narrow subject focus, though.  Lipris is right (below) keeping up with all the hearings, committee meetings, etc. would be a huge job.  Some is, of course, just show and positioning, but, some is not.  Savvy advocates work hard to tell the difference; a site like this could be a real asset to many of them (as is the Times Union's Capcon blog). Bingo-- more savvy and informed readers.

I think that all of us diarying when we attend hearings, lobby days, committee meetings, etc. would be really good.  That would, of course, mean going sometimes.

Some folks would rather focus on the chimera that by a change in personnel (new leaders) everything would be magically different.  IMHO, all democracy requires hard-working citizen activists to be effective-- the leaders are pushed to their best performance by constituents who are active and knowledgeable.  A focus on electioneering only gets you glad-handers who are good at electioneering.  An informed and active constituent base brings to bear "the wisdom of the many" on the problems of the state.

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by: robinia @ Thu Mar 29, 2007 at 19:41:56 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

How to reach more people? (4.00 / 1)

This site is only 2-3 months in the making.  Like good wine, time is an important ingredient.  Give this project more time to develop... 

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by: hawkny @ Wed Mar 28, 2007 at 01:24:29 AM UTC

We got some good incomming links early (4.00 / 1)

Kos, MYDD, all of Soapblox. The State Senate election also was a really strong point for us, so we have grown very fast considering the groth of blogs (Bri and lipris' high blogoshpere profile also helped quite a bit I assume). Does anybody have a good idea of the readership?

Reality has a well known liberal Bias-Stephen Colbert

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by: pierredude @ Wed Mar 28, 2007 at 04:10:54 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

The site is great - (0.00 / 0)

I'm just wondering how better to connect it to the general disgruntlement out there.  How do we get beyond the usual suspects - like me - and bring these issues to a broader group of people who may not even use or like the web?

A site can reach well beyond the boundaries of its readership, but it's a hard thing to do.

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by: simonstl @ Wed Mar 28, 2007 at 12:30:50 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Are the disgruntled the target audience? (0.00 / 0)

I've never found that the folks who are disgruntled, or very critical of government, are very effective at making social change.  They often are resigned to being unhappy about the way things are, rather than seeing themselves as powerful agents of change.  Empowering leadership for social movements is usually focused on the positive aspects of mission; as one of my favorite leaders says in one of my favorite quotes "eyes on the prize."  We can reach more people through effective opinion leaders (who will, in turn, influence their friends and neighbors in a viral-marketing fashion)-- and we can do this by clearly envisioning and writing the changes we want to see.

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by: robinia @ Thu Mar 29, 2007 at 20:04:32 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Normally I'd agree that positive is better (0.00 / 0)

but in conversation after conversation with practically everyone I've talked with about New York State politics, the sheer awfulness of it is an overwhelming theme.  (Much much worse than discussions of the federal government, I'm afraid, and this is thinking through conversations I can remember going back to around 1987.)

The one breakthrough I hear in those conversations - even from Republicans - is that Spitzer can break through the usual logjams. 

"Democracy in Albany" seems like a good positive theme - the hard question is whether voters think it's remotely possible.

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by: simonstl @ Thu Mar 29, 2007 at 21:03:48 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Who is organized? (4.00 / 1)

Maybe an effort to identify and assess New York (State) based activist groups (of all stripes; I include Greens) ought to be done first.  You can't answer these questions and set goals on getting people more involved, unless you know who the activists are and what connections they have to the average citizen in New York (if any).

Ironic of me to say so, since TAP's radio program last night focused on police surveillance -- but we need organized intelligence, a dossier of some sort, on the existing activist network in New York... a dossier that focuses on ways they can be steered/used to the advantage of people trying to change Albany. 

We need intelligence.

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by: NYCO @ Wed Mar 28, 2007 at 23:50:52 PM UTC

Organized, interested, not complicit (4.00 / 1)

I agree that we need to figure out who's active, but I'm afraid the "surveillance" faces an extra challenge: activist groups don't tend to be organized around legislative reform.

A lot of Democrats I've spoken with are perfectly content with the Assembly as it is, because it delivers results they approve of.  (They point to the Republican Senate as the real problem, of course.)

Greens can point to the whole thing and say it's a wreck - they're safely not involved.  At least around here, though, while there are lots of them, I don't see much sign of organization.

I suspect that the groups most actively interested in reform are various groups seeking things like "renewal" of the parties - folks like Dean/Democracy for America.  (I suspect we'll eventually see some similar groups on the Republican side.)

Overall, though, while the activists are important, I'm wondering more what we can do to catalyze the general disgruntlement of average New Yorkers.  I don't see a huge number of fans for state government out there - and they mostly seem to feel there's nothing that can be done.

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by: simonstl @ Thu Mar 29, 2007 at 14:24:07 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

process or issues (0.00 / 0)

I think you make a key point: people care about results.

Most people, frankly, don't care about government reform because they assume that any system can be gamed.  That's why people might not care about government reform, but government corruption stil resonates as a campaign issue.  Corruption gets in the way of results.  I think issues and personalities are more motivating to people.

My vote would be to push popular issues, which will get more press post-budget.  And the more press (print or institutional blogs) TAP gets, the more traffic and discussion will take place.

My two cents.

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by: SteveWFP @ Thu Mar 29, 2007 at 17:39:01 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

that might make good sense for the WFP (0.00 / 0)

but I think we'll only get gamed that direction.  Process reform will be just another piece on the game table, offered up when convenient and pulled back when not.

It's a sad state of affairs when issues seem like a distraction from the problems at the core of government, but the NYS legislature seems to me to have gotten so bad that it's genuinely the case.

(How else can you explain Joe Bruno's spendthrift ways this budget season?)

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by: simonstl @ Thu Mar 29, 2007 at 17:57:26 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

well, I do work for the WFP (0.00 / 0)

I don't think issues seem like a distraction for most people. Otherwise, I think you'd have seen more focus on process during the budget negotiations. And I think that's why Bruno took the stance he did - he thinks it'll be good for his members when they run for election.

I agree the risk of getting gamed and seeing your legislation "offered up when convenient and pulled back when not" is real. I think, for now, you overcome that hurdle by being a constant presence and showing you can impact elections.

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by: SteveWFP @ Fri Mar 30, 2007 at 02:12:13 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

We'll get a shitload of more fans once we start cleaning house in our own party (0.00 / 0)

Kos was huge before the Lamont/LIEberman primary, but after he basically burst into orbit.  If we can say, take out Shelly Silver, we could become a household name.  And turning the Senate wouldn't hurt either.

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by: Roatti @ Thu Mar 29, 2007 at 01:02:54 AM UTC

Lots of people want reform (4.00 / 1)

of various kinds. I've thought for a while that it's been time for Democrats to clean house - our own house included.

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by: simonstl @ Thu Mar 29, 2007 at 14:25:57 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

not sure I agree (4.00 / 1)

I think Kos got big with poll numbers as a place for people to become insiders around the 04 presidential.

I think Kos got press because he was seen as a driving force behind the Lamont campaign.

But I do agree that driving a serious candidate's campaign with money and volunteers would raise TAP's profile.

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by: SteveWFP @ Thu Mar 29, 2007 at 17:44:06 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

TAP=individual campaign? (2.00 / 2)

Hmmm.  When TAP becomes a money-and-volunteer-raising org on behalf of an individual campaign, I'm gone.  We have all sorts of parties, splinter parties, pacs and so on for that.  Who needs more?  I would rather see TAP head toward real policy and legislative-rule development and advocacy, toward the goal of a more functional legislative system that was responsive to the constituents.  I don't think mass appeal is all that important for the site itself and its work-- as above, I think we are looking to catalyze the thinking of opinion leaders who are already active in their parties, pacs, good-government and issue-organizations, etc.

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by: robinia @ Thu Mar 29, 2007 at 20:14:43 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I have similar worries about campaigns (4.00 / 1)

though I think in my case it's probably more over what a "serious candidate" would mean and whether we could agree about such things without splintering.

I do, however, think mass appeal is critical to achieving meaningful change.

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by: simonstl @ Thu Mar 29, 2007 at 21:05:55 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

that's fair too (0.00 / 0)

I can see how that could work.

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by: SteveWFP @ Fri Mar 30, 2007 at 02:01:02 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Lipris has made it clear (4.00 / 1)

he will support fully anybody who is truly committed to taking down Shelly. If we did that, it would be the end of the world as we know it. But who would have the brass balls that lives in his district to take him on? It would be one uphill battle

Reality has a well known liberal Bias-Stephen Colbert

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by: pierredude @ Fri Mar 30, 2007 at 01:25:34 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

I think what is needed is a Citizens Initiative process.... (0.00 / 0)

... seemed to work fine in California all the years I lived there..  when ever things got too far out of balance..  a ballot initiative was drawn up .. debated by the poeple and voted on .. and overrode all the political posturing.  Perhaps that ought to be TAP's pet project..  Citizens Initiative .. to break the log jam in Albany.  That and a 2/3 vote to increase school taxes should pretty much fix things IMHO.

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by: Derffie @ Fri Mar 30, 2007 at 03:21:29 AM UTC

Something glitchy in the promotion system? (4.00 / 1)

I think this article has been bumped three times now.  I love the conversation, but maybe it needs to find a fresh thread?

Thanks!

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by: simonstl @ Fri Mar 30, 2007 at 12:38:12 PM UTC