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This belongs to you. Take it back...

Really? I mean, really?

by: Historical Pessimist

Wed Mar 25, 2009 at 19:30:42 PM EDT


(Wow. - promoted by phillip anderson)

Real leaders are sorely lacking in New York, but nowhere is this more true than the GLOW counties (Genesee, Livingston, Orleans, and Wyoming). Today, our State Senators (Volker and Ranzenhofer) have joined other upstate Republicans to start another round of "Look at that Shiny Object Over There," the game we have been playing forever with the same lackluster results. Follow me over the fold to read about today's counterproductive move.

(Crossposted at GLOWDemocrats.com.)

Historical Pessimist :: Really? I mean, really?
As everyone should surely know by now, New York faces one of the most dire financial crises in its history. Last month alone, the projected state deficit for the coming year grew by $2 billion (with a "b"), because the recession continues to shrink the tax revenues the state usually brings in. We have been on a troubling trajectory for some time, spending too much, but what has taken that unhealthy status quo and turned it into a true fiscal emergency is the broader economic climate that has caused a dramatic reduction in the state's resources.

It's clear that now, more than ever, all New Yorkers should be working together to find a way out of this mess, regardless of party or region. Unfortunately, upstate Republicans, including two who represent parts of the GLOW counties, have taken the opposite path. Late today comes word (http://blogs.timesunion.com/capitol/archives/12808/secession-the-yankee-way) that State Senators Dale Volker (SD61, all of Wyoming and parts of Livingston), Mike Ranzenhofer (all of Genesee), Joe Robach (SD 56), James Seward (SD 51), and William Larkin (SD39) introduced legislation to allow a referendum to go before New Yorkers, asking the question: "Do you support the division of New York into two separate states?" This is about as far as possible from the kind of constructive thinking we need right now. It will generate press and play into people's prejudices, but it won't help solve our problems and may make it harder for clearer thinking people to do the job these gentlemen refuse to do.

One of the misconceptions we labor under here upstate is the notion that our tax money all goes to New York City. My experience campaigning for the 147th Assembly seat in 2006 convinces me that this is an unshakable article of faith among many of our neighbors, despite the fact that our counties get more dollars back from Albany than we send. Perhaps they believe that because Republican politicians like Dale Volker (who has been in office since I was in elementary school, and I am hardly a spring chicken,) have harped on evil "downstate interests" for a generation to reinforce the Republican brand and keep us from really working on the issues that face the entire state. So, many upstate voters will find their incorrect assumptions reinforced by this referendum idea and could latch on to it. Unrealistic fantasies that divorcing from downstate would be the magic bullet our region needs will dominate the conversation, when what our region and state both need are long overdue doses of realism and reform when it comes to governance and budgeting.

What's worse is there is an unintended consequence here that could do more damage than just repeating our tradition of ignoring root causes when a misleading diversion is handy. You see, it turns out that downstaters have their own dreams of secession, and it is becoming an ever-more enticing idea to many of them. They regard upstate as a bottomless pit for their tax dollars, and they'd like to be free of what they see as the burden of upstate. So, Senators Volker, Ranzenhofer, et al, be careful what you wish for.

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Unbelieveable. The party of NO, proving that they have (0.00 / 0)
NO new ideas, NO willingness to work toward solutions, and NO constructive solutions for the people they represent. What a colossal distraction and waste of time.  
Who's running for these seats next time?


Splitter (4.00 / 1)
I blogged about this a couple weeks ago.

http://twentyfour01.com/nyco/2...

I don't really know if you can blame the GOP for the sentiment (just for indulging it).  I mean, even rational Democrats here at TAP have discussed the concept.


Oh, oh, OHHHH the irony (0.00 / 0)
The same people who were virtually bankrolled by Long Island want to play some silly and irresponsible game of division, banking on peoples fears and disparity that is in its entirety based on partisanship.

Instead of being so unabashadly concerned with public relations, perhaps these "representatives" three could actually do something thats, well, ya know, bears any relevance.


Illinois (0.00 / 0)
used to go through this stupidity every once in awhile. Split big city Democratic Chicago off from rural republican downstate.

It was dumb grandstanding there. It is dumb grandstanding here. It is not a solution.

Besides upstate New York is more Democratic then Republican these days anyhow. Just as downstate Illinois votes much more reliably Democratic now then it did back then too.


yes, but... (4.00 / 1)
Upstate and Downstate Illinois (to the best of my knowledge) never had the extreme economic disparity as Upstate and Downstate New York have had for a long time.

This isn't cultural, it's economic.  Which is bad news.

It may be just political grandstanding, but it's not as if rational Upstaters (and rational Upstate Dems) haven't thought about the concept for a long time.  


[ Parent ]
Seriously? (4.00 / 1)
Do upstaters really want this discussion?

New York City sends over $10 billion (with a "b") more to Albany that it gets back.  Splitting the state would be a boon to NYC, and an economic disaster upstate.

In return for that largesse, NYC's housing laws, tax rates and mass transit options are controlled by upstaters.

If Volcker, Robach, et. al. want this discussion, I'd be happy to have it.  But I suspect that whoever runs against them next year will be happy to have a debate over why they would even bring something up that (if it ever passed) would hurt their own district.  Should be a lot of fun.


the argument (0.00 / 0)
Upstate only needs Downstate largesse because (so the argument goes) it's being prevented from competing.  Maybe some people Upstate do not want to be on the Downstate teat any more.  At some point, "But!  But!  You DEPEND on us for money!" is not a compelling argument for sticking together.   Who really wants to be constantly told that they're a charity case?

This is a classic example of what's been happening:  A company that was coming to Syracuse is now going to Pennsylvania because NY's red tape was taking too long (in its view) to clear.

http://www.syracuse.com/news/i...

I don't get it.  Is there something inherently wrong with Upstate that it isn't a good place for business?  No.  It's got stunning natural resources and intelligent, well-educated people.  The problem is that New York State administration has grown so complex that it's no longer economically viable... for Upstate, anyway.

Anyhow, that's the argument.  Not saying it's the correct one, but don't paint this as "You silly ignorant Upstaters, don't you know that you're poor and helpless?"  

We're not poor.  Or helpless.



[ Parent ]
Major cities and their more rural surrounding regions ideally operate in a synergistic fashion.... (0.00 / 0)
...with the urbanized area being the center of economic activity, as a matter of course.  Read Jane Jacobs for the basic theory.  

In NYS, we have governmental dysfunction, and that has mucked up the situation.  I do think this is a bit like a marriage.  Shall we grow up and clean up our acts, or keep blaming each other?  A city as large as NY, even a trading port of world renown, needs a watershed, foodshed and peripheral trade area.  A mostly-rural peripheral area needs a market.  Communication, respect, understanding, and mutual support are the key to good relations.  And, cleaning up the corrupt state government that encourages partisan hatred and blame.


[ Parent ]
That has nothing to do with downstate though. (0.00 / 0)
It has to do with Albany, and getting the state government straightened out. People like Volker, Ranzenhofer, and Robach are perfect examples of why an upstate-only government would continue to be dysfunctional and corrupt.  

[ Parent ]
actually, the funny part is (0.00 / 0)
that I think a lot of Downstate folks would also like to have the separation conversation.  Not so much Norman Mailer and the old 51st State crowd, but progressives who see Upstate conservatism standing in the way of their favorite issues.

At least that's been my experience talking with people in person.


[ Parent ]
Exactly my point (0.00 / 0)
Senators Volker, et al, be careful what you wish for!

[ Parent ]
if we really don't have much in common any more (0.00 / 0)
why fight so hard to stay together?  

NYCO's comment on the other thread about counseling seems to fit - though I don't see either side enthusiastic about partnership.


[ Parent ]
Downstate also gets... (0.00 / 0)
...cut rate water and hydroelectric power. Then...let's talk about the NYC public school funding lawsuit. Then...let's talk about the total lack of attention governors (both Democrat and Republican) have paid to crumbling Upstate cities. There's a bigger picture here. It's a real issue.

As real...or big as the budget deficit? No. But that doesn't mean that those traditional-Republicans Upstate who have voted Democrat recently don't care about being the red-headed step-child as far as state government is concerned.


[ Parent ]
sorry (0.00 / 0)
I wrote the other post while watching my baby, and so it took a while.  I hadn't realized that we had two posts on the same story posted within twenty minutes until this morning.

The results are interesting, though!


As an upstater... (4.00 / 2)
I do not want this "solution." I see this as a publicity stunt and a desperate attempt at attention. I think they succeeded in that.

It's one thing when my assemblyman - a Republican in a very small Assembly minority - passes this off as an idea. It's another when a number of senators in the Senate minority start thinking that, because they have two fewer members than the majority, it's time to start calling for a secession.

I never heard this passed off as a major idea of theirs when they held the majority for 40-plus years. Now, the "downstate Democrats" are in charge so we need to take back our state from New York City.

And for the record, rational Democrats don't discuss this issue seriously. Rational Democrats see this (or would see this) for what it is: It's an attempt by Republicans to divide this state geographically and politically so that, come 2010, they can take back the New York State Senate from the "downstaters."  


uh, Robert (0.00 / 0)
I'd be a little more cautious about declaring that "rational Democrats don't discuss this issue seriously".

I know a lot of Democrats, Upstate, Downstate, and in the Hudson Valley, who discuss this issue seriously, I really doubt they'd take kindly to being told that means they're not rational.

I certainly don't.

More soon!


[ Parent ]
Sorry simonstl... (0.00 / 0)
There is nothing rational about calling for the separation of a state, especially when this has been a Republican talking point for a long time. If you think it is a rational argument to make, I'm not going to stand in the way of your thinking. But it only helps forward a long-time Republican talking point that they will surely use in the 2010 elections.

Keep in mind, the Republicans were already playing this card in 2008. They were saying that if the Democrats took over the New York State Senate, the three most powerful people in Albany would all be from New York City.

It doesn't help us as a party if we buy into that kind of thinking.

And don't forget that an upstate Democrat wrote this piece. She clearly isn't signing on to such a theory and sees it for what it is. Other upstate Democrats have commented here. I believe Janed said it best:

NO new ideas, NO willingness to work toward solutions, and NO constructive solutions for the people they represent. What a colossal distraction and waste of time.  
Who's running for these seats next time?

A colossal distraction and waste of time, indeed.  


[ Parent ]
Well, hey (0.00 / 0)
if you're happy dismissing Democrats because you think their thoughts on one key issue are not "rational," I guess that's your prerogative.

The original post, though I thoroughly disagree with its arguments, didn't take that step.

There is a good conversation to be had here, but your approach is mostly good for ending conversation.

- end -


[ Parent ]
Simonstl... (4.00 / 1)
Okay, let me ask this then:

What is rational about a Democrat buying into this Republican talking point?

Maybe you can change my mind. But as a Democrat who has listened to Republicans over the years rant and rave about "New York City liberal Democrats", I don't see where jumping on a bandwagon with the Republicans will help our cause here.

But go ahead, show me how it is rational for a Democrat (or anyone) to believe that the way to address the so-called upstate/downstate divide is to split the state into two separate states.

And again, to be clear, I said that it wasn't rational for Democrats to buy into the Republican talking point here. I wasn't "dismissing" Democrats. But I will dismiss the line of thinking, whether it comes from a Democrat or Republican, that splitting this state up is a good idea.  


[ Parent ]
not just a talking point (0.00 / 0)
"What is rational about a Democrat buying into this Republican talking point?"

First, the "Republican talking points" thing is just plain funny.  I mean, put simply, you're assuming that if the Republicans are for it, we Democrats ought to be against it.

Politics is rarely that polarizing.  A lot of Democrats hold occasional positions that are more typically seen as Republican, and vice-versa.  That doesn't mean that they're not Democrats, and it certainly doesn't mean that they're not rational.

Yes, Republicans say a lot of bogus things for reasons we dislike.  That doesn't mean that everything they say is bogus.

You write:
"I said that it wasn't rational for Democrats to buy into the Republican talking point here"

Unfortunately, that isn't what you said.  That's still annoying, but it's not nearly as dismissive as:

"rational Democrats don't discuss this issue seriously. Rational Democrats see this..."

But on substance, you ask:
"But go ahead, show me how it is rational for a Democrat (or anyone) to believe that the way to address the so-called upstate/downstate divide is to split the state into two separate states."

Actually, it's extremely easy for me to tell that story from a Downstate Democrat's perspective.  Upstate's a drag on their economy, costing them money and control and inflicting much more conservative politics on them than they would have otherwise.  They could have had gay marriage, Rockefeller Law reform, a saner tax structure, attention to the MTA, and a lot of other things a long time ago if they weren't welded to Upstate.

From an Upstate perspective, New York City's needs and wants are a huge distraction from the work that needs to be done up here. That's before we even start talking about the cultural differences between different regions, the different economic patterns of the two regions, and the breakdown of what was once a somewhat unified state economy.

I suspect that if you actually held a referendum on this, you'd find strong support for splitting all over the state.  Long Island might be a special case, as it's more conservative than NYC but has no other easy place to go, and the Hudson Valley is a pretty unstable mix of "Upstate" old-timers and "Downstate" newcomers.

I don't think there are easy answers here, but I do think these divisions are at the foundation of a lot of New York State's problems.  I'd much rather discuss them than sweep them under the rug because oh, no!  The vicious Republicans were the ones who brought it up this time!

We need to get past that if we're actually hoping to improve things around here.


[ Parent ]
Can someone provide... (4.00 / 1)
...a complete history of secession/breakup noises from politicians and public figures over the past several decades?  

The last time someone was squawking about it and getting any ink, it was Peter Vallone I think.  A Queens Democrat.

http://queenscrap.blogspot.com...

So, how is this just a Republican thing?  It's not.


[ Parent ]
Can someone also provide (4.00 / 1)
a case study of a successful breaking of a state, region or province into two?  Kosovo et al doesn't seem much of a model; Ireland is scary; Quebec separatism has not been so good for Quebec in retrospect.... where was it that this kind of thing worked well?

[ Parent ]
VA/WV (0.00 / 0)
The classic example within the US is West Virginia's separation from Virginia, though that was of course during the Civil War.

Vermont folks could also claim in some ways that they separated from New York - there's some early ugly history that apparently left Vermont not fond of lawyers for centuries afterward.

Most of the separations, though, happened in transitions from territories to statehood.

There is some brightness in Yugoslavia breaking up, in Slovenia, which avoided the collapse of the rest.  The Czech and Slovak separation wasn't friendly, but seems to have worked.

I don't think Quebec separatism did much damage that wouldn't have happened anyway.  It didn't do much good, but having spent too much time in Toronto with people who didn't notice my plainly Quebecois last name, I can't say I'm surprised at all that at least some Quebecois want to get the hell out.


[ Parent ]
OK-- that might be a model. (0.00 / 0)
NYC can go its own way, like Monticello and U of Virginia did, and leave us in upstate to the kind mercies of the mining companies and/or woodchuck stew on cabin stoves.  If we're hydrofracked now, can mountaintop removal be far behind?  Oy.  Get me yer rifle, pa, I think I am gonna go give them mine-owners a piece of my mind....

[ Parent ]
I agree (4.00 / 1)
Upstate is not ready for primetime politically (certainly Upstate Dems aren't ready to stand on their own two feet - although it isn't for lack of trying among the rank and file) and of course it would be a sitting duck for environmental and labor looting.

But Upstate would have these problems to deal with anyway if New York City decided to take its toys and go home.
Downstate secessionists will always get more attention and more media coverage, and if they wanted to build a movement, they could whip one up in no time. They being the more powerful, they can do as they please, so frankly I think it's irresponsible of Upstaters to NOT ever consider a future without them.

I think it's important to talk about this and I don't really care who brings it up out of what motive.


[ Parent ]
Virginia still has some serious fragmentation issues (0.00 / 0)
blast on West Virginia if you like, but remember that you too live in Appalachia, and I'm not sure it's wise to mock it.

The funny part, though, is that Virginia, reduced as it is, still has some serious divisions, especially along its western edge and in a serious north-south way too.  The VA/WV divide just kind of happened, and wasn't well-planned.

I agree that Upstate politics has a long ways to go, but at the same time a lot of that's just the wrongly comfortable position you get from being in dependency, and being able to point the finger elsewhere.

Take away downstate, and we'd have to grow up.  Would we?  Fair question, but I don't think the answer is an obvious no.


[ Parent ]
Am a proud Appalachian (0.00 / 0)
My hubby does have some guns, and while we don't make woodchuck stew, we do eat venison and even squirrel stew sometimes.  I'm just suggesting that it is not so smart to turn your back on the urbanized part of the state... it has lasting, and not so positive, marginalization effects that make you not able to defend yourselves very effectively against predatory natural resources corporations.

And, the mining issue happens to be huge at the moment-- Simon, are you making sure your Town folks attend that Council of Governments seminar on what towns can do?


[ Parent ]
Upstate New York isn't exactly rural (0.00 / 0)
I'm not sure that I'd describe Upstate NY separating from Downstate as "turning your back on the urbanized part of the state".  I think it might be more "turning your back on the megalopolis part of the state", the part of the state that has more in common with the Bos-Wash corridor than it does with points north and west.  We'd still have large urban areas and small urban areas.

I can't say that New York even today has done well at dealing with predatory corporations.  At one point I realized that Pennsylvania had more regulation on natural gas extraction than New York does, and it's hard for me to say that we've really been ahead of the game in environmental issues broadly. Of course, we've been benefiting from predators extracting their profits from the whole country, so maybe that kept us from getting too excited.

Finally, I don't "make sure" about much with our Town folks.  I was never really that kind of Chair, and at this point I'm semi-retired.  Happily, though, the Dems have been asking questions about this for a while (and so were the local Republicans, actually).


[ Parent ]
yep - definitely on all sides (0.00 / 0)
I wish I had the time to research a full story, but I suspect there's a doctoral dissertation there.  I know Norman Mailer was far from the first to call for separation, but don't have more details.

[ Parent ]
I guess you don't get my point... (0.00 / 0)
My point is that this talking point has been used in political campaigns to attack Democrats and to defeat them in elections. And if you think that no one buys into it, guess again.

Just look at the race Mike Ranzenhofer ran against Joe Mesi. Ranzenhofer used Mesi's downstate donors against him, even though Ranzenhofer was a recipient of monies from New York City and Long Island just like Mesi was. Ranzenhofer also said that Mesi being connected to those same downstate donors would mean that he would be defending New York City, not the 61st Senate District.

Now, Ranzenhofer is one of the senators talking secession. Coincidence? Definitely not.

Mentioning Peter Vallone is one example. I know for a fact there are at least a few Democrats who like this idea because there are two of them right in this thread. But reality is that the upstate Republicans have been using this for years.

My assemblyman, Steve Hawley, talked secession earlier this year. He wanted to get universities to look into the viability of such a move. I wrote about it and it was covered in the local newspaper. I can also name probably a half-dozen or more Republicans who used the upstate/downstate divide as a campaign issue, even though much more important issues were ignored.

As for the talk here that upstate Democrats aren't ready for primetime, didn't upstate just turn blue recently? It wasn't that way before. Upstate was Republican country. Now, upstate has more Democrats than Republicans. That doesn't happen because of good luck. That happens because we worked hard and we proved to people that the party of new ideas is the Democratic Party. Upstate Democrats are ready for primetime. We have been ready for a long time.

I hate to repeat myself, but this is a long-time Republican talking point that has been used to defeat us. It has even been used in local races to defeat Democratic candidates.

When Peter Vallone was discussing separating New York City away from the rest of the state, he was doing so out of selfishness for New York City. He believes (wrongly, I would argue) that New York City will be just fine on its own and shouldn't have to give money back to the state for upstaters' consumption.

When the Republicans use this, they are doing this because New York City is predominantly Democratic and because the leadership of this state is all concentrated in New York City. The governor? From New York City. Senate Majority Leader? From Queens. The Assembly Speaker? From Manhattan.

The Republicans aren't using this to have a serious discussion about what would a secession look like. They are doing this strictly for political reasons. That's the only reason they bring this issue up and that's the only reason why they have ever brought this issue up.


[ Parent ]
no, I don't think your "point" is a good idea (0.00 / 0)
It doesn't matter who talks about the upstate-downstate divide or why.  It's not just a Republican talking point, as has been demonstrated here repeatedly.  It's actually something that a lot of New Yorkers think about on a regular basis, and not just because Republicans trump it up.

There is an Upstate-Downstate divide, and it gets used both directions - in NYC and up here.  There's plenty of hypocrisy in that usage, but that doesn't mean the divide doesn't exist.  "Rational Democrats" might actually see the existence of that divide, accept it, and think it needs addressing, one way or the other.

There's a lot more to this issue than partisan politics, cheering for our team and against the other guys.  If you want to blast this conversation, especially among Democrats, because it feels Republican to you, you've made a pretty enormous long-term mistake.  

One you seem intent on carrying as far you can.  Good luck with that!


[ Parent ]
Okay Simon... (0.00 / 0)
You win.

It's not just a Republican talking point.

It's only something the Republicans have used repeatedly for years.

Since you apparently don't think my point is valid, here you go. I will let you, and other readers here, be the judge:

- Joe Robach Announces He's Running For Re-Election - The NYC Dems Really Have Their Work Cut Out For Them. - Monroe Rising

- SD-56: Dollinger And Robach Debate - A post written by me

- SD-61: Mike Ranzenhofer Is Another Downstate Bashing Hypocrite - a post written by Phillip

- SD-61: Ranzenhofer's Downstate Money

- Two WNY state senators accuse Spitzer of downstate bias

- SD-62: For Maziarz, Manhattan Only Good For The Money

- SD-48: Flogging A Dead Horse

Those are just some examples for you. I could list more, including plenty of articles from the mainstream media. But I will let these blog posts do the talking.

If it's not just a Republican talking point, then the whole discussion about an upstate-downstate divide has been dominated by the Republicans who are using it for political gain. I guess that makes it less of a talking point and more of a strategy.  


[ Parent ]
sorry, Robert (0.00 / 0)
Just because the Republicans have pushed an idea, even when they've pushed it repeatedly, doesn't mean it's wrong.

Please, stop pushing this "either be on my team or go away" nonsense.  You're right a lot of the time, but when you go that route, you run right off the rails.

Thanks!


[ Parent ]
I don't care what opinions you hold... (0.00 / 0)
I'm glad that you have them. That's what puts in motion good debate and honest debate.

I am not saying that because the Republicans push this, it is wrong. I am saying that because the Republicans use this for political gain, it is wrong. They have in the past. And they will certainly use it again.


[ Parent ]
Oh, and let me add this one... (0.00 / 0)
From Bill Hammond of the New York Daily News:

How state GOP smears N.Y.C.

That's a must read.  


[ Parent ]
This is very sad (4.00 / 2)
The idea of the state splitting into two over ideological reasons is nothing new, but there is no possible way that such an event (as unlikely as it is) would benefit any if its residents. Yes, upstate carried more than its share of the financial burden during some economic tough times for the city in the 1970s and in the 1980s, but in boom times downstate that debt has been repaid with the greater NYC area benefitting less and having a higher net tax burden than the remainder of the state. A few years ago, it was found that the City of New York gave $11 billion more in tax revenue than it received back.

If anything, Western New York/upstate and the downstate have a unique symbiotic relationship that you don't find in many other states, like my former home of Michigan where the Upper Peninsula has no natural relationship to the lower one.

In the end, the division of New York into two states is impossible. It would be crippling to New York get into some dysfunctional Western NY/upstate/downstate feud. And now, with much of Western NY in a permanent recession, they need downstate more than ever. Still, I think it is high time to discuss ways of rebooting the State's economic priorities to help give Western NY/upstate a needed shot in the arm. Putting a high-speed rail line to connect the entire state would help (and extending this line down along Lake Erie into Ohio would help even more, as it will coalesce the nanotechnology alley that runs from Cleveland to Syracuse. And to do so, the western part of the state will need the tax resources from downstate.



The 2-State "Solution" (4.00 / 3)
Separating New York into two states would very quickly lead to at least one failed state. If we're worried about that globally, shouldn't we be worried about it right here?

[ Parent ]
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