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NY-Sen: Primary hypocrisy

by: devtob

Tue Jul 07, 2009 at 22:49:17 PM EDT


There will evidently be a Democratic primary among Congresswoman Carolyn Maloney (NY-14), Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand, and possibly some others, next year.

Maloney supporters, here and in the media, argue that a primary is the essence of democracy, but really they're only doing that because they are Maloney supporters, and Maloney is not the Senate incumbent.

Had Gov. David Paterson appointed Maloney to the Senate in January, NO Maloney supporter would be such a fan of an expensive, late primary which may have weakened Maloney in the general election.

It's not the worst political hypocrisy, but it is some level of hypocrisy, for Maloney supporters to try to sanctify the primary for their candidate.

Two examples of this, below.

devtob :: NY-Sen: Primary hypocrisy
First of all, how wonderful primaries are ALWAYS depends on how you feel about the incumbent.

In this instance, if you, as I do, believe Gillibrand is doing an excellent job as Senator and is an important and substantial upstate addition to an otherwise all NYC-and-suburbs statewide Democratic ticket, then you would prefer that she not have to spend millions on a September primary next year.

Maloney supporters call that natural political calculation undemocratic, yet they are not always consistent about that.

For example, longtime Harlem Congressman Charlie Rangel criticized President Obama for "interfering" in next year's Senatorial primary, according to the New York Daily News:

I really cannot say anything negative about a senior member who wants to run and whose polls, at this point in time, appear to be in her favor.

I really don't understand why President Obama got involved in our primary. I don't want to use the word wrong, but it doesn't seem like the astute political thing to do.

Rangel is referring to the widely reported phone call from Obama to Rep. Steve Israel, asking him not to primary Gillibrand.

But for Rangel, as for all of us, whether a primary is a good thing or not is relative.

Here's what he had to say recently about a possible primary between his friend from Harlem Gov. Paterson and Attorney General Andrew Cuomo, also from the Daily News:

There might be an inclination for racial polarization in a primary in the state of New York.

Since we have most African-Americans registered as Democrats, and since you would be making an appeal for Democrats, it would be devastating in my opinion.

The only reason a potential primary between Paterson and Cuomo has come up is that polls have shown Cuomo winning that primary by more than 2-1.

So, Rangel opposes a statewide primary against his unpopular friend, but supports one where another friend from Manhattan is challenging a more competent and popular incumbent than Paterson -- Kirsten Gillibrand.

That is hypocrisy, pure and simple.

Friendship has also influenced coverage of the Gillibrand/Maloney primary in the many media platforms of Alan Chartock.

Chartock runs a multi-station public radio network in eastern and central New York, on which he relentlessly promotes his decades-long friend Maloney.

He also writes pro-Maloney op-eds for small newspapers in the Hudson Valley, like this one in the Kingston Daily Freeman that is absurd in many ways

In Massachusetts where I live (that's right, Chartock cannot vote in New York), we have the right to maintain independent status, but to vote in either primary. This type of "open" primary offers the voter maximum flexibility and explains why there are so many independent voters in Massachusetts. People want the right to move from party to party and to avoid the elite political corps in both parties.

Voters in New York, however, have to be a registered in either party in order to vote in a primary.

"There," thought the incumbent politicians. "That'll fix the troublemakers."

Chartock is writing about a NY primary for his friend, and proposing a "better" primary system that would not help his friend at all.

Then there's a weird bit where Chartock imagines Sen. Chuck Schumer talking shamefully to his mirror.

Go read the whole thing, to see how prejudicial Chartock's "analysis" is.

One bit of red meat for Manhattan liberals is Chartock's statement, probably stenoed from the Maloney campaign, that the "terrible" former U.S. Sen. Al D'Amato was Gillibrand's mentor.

Gillibrand had interned with D'Amato's Senate office when she was a teen-age college student.

Her real political mentors, in this century, were/are Hillary Clinton and Chuck Schumer, both Democrats and both very popular throughout the state.

As will be Gillibrand.

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Rangel is more hypocritical (4.00 / 1)
than other Maloney supporters about this, but the plain fact is that people like, or dislike, primaries depending on how they feel about the incumbent and potential challengers.

There is clearly no universal standard that primaries are the essence of democracy, and therefore always necessary.


baloney! (4.00 / 1)
There are many who supported a primary no matter who was appointed.  I preferred an appointment for a place holder, much maligned by Gillibrand supporters, which would have assured a primary.  

The principal objection to Gillibrand is that she was appointed by an unelected governor, and then she and other "leaders" of the state and national party engaged in a campaign to clear the decks to keep out the nasty voter.  


[ Parent ]
I call b.s. -- and shame -- on you, Dev (0.00 / 0)
You write:

Maloney supporters, here and in the media, argue that a primary is the essence of democracy, but really they're only doing that because they are Maloney supporters, and Maloney is not the Senate incumbent.

But you are well aware that the following statement was issued well before Paterson appointed Gillibrand, on 15 January 2010:

LINK: A Progressive Senator for New York In 2010

That constitutes clear evidence (of which you have been well aware) that the belief in the need for and value of) a primary pre-existed both Gillibrand's appointment and Maloney's apparent intention to run.

And yet you have the nerve to utterly distort people's intentions, while calling them hypocrites? Take a look in the mirror.

(On a personal note, I for one have supported the value of primaries for as long as I've been an adult voter -- and have helped run Democrats in primaries before.)

This diary merely demonstrates that no argument, however dishonest, is beneath supporters of the current State Democratic establishment.


[ Parent ]
The polls that say Maloney has a shot at Gillibrand ... (4.00 / 3)
are all bogus, most significantly, her first poll which was generated internally by her own political operatives.  

I say, "lets get it on".  Lets have the primary and put Ms. Maloney's popularity to rest, permanently.

Isn't that carpetbagger Chartock something else?


Agreed. (4.00 / 2)
It's obvious at this point that there's going to be no way of avoiding blue-on-blue fire. Let's do it and get it over with.

What people will end up finding out in the end is that those of us who saw the writing on the wall were right that avoiding this would have been better for everybody.  


[ Parent ]
Yes, all polls of this race are bogus... (0.00 / 0)
... including Quinnipiac and Siena (which you conveniently omit mentioning), so long as they show a negative outcome for Gillibrand.

If/when there is positive news for Gillibrand in a poll, her supporters will suddenly see the value of polling again.


[ Parent ]
Funny, because anyone with an ounce of sense... (0.00 / 0)
Will continuously tell you that election polling a year out is basically useless. If it weren't, last year voters would have been picking between Hillary Clinton and Rudy Giuliani.

And I'd love to see where you think I've been promoting the absolute value of election polls as more than a curiousity, particularly since you yourself are right here crowing loudly about polls more favorable to your viewpoint.


[ Parent ]
Here's A Counterexample (4.00 / 4)
how wonderful primaries are ALWAYS depends on how you feel about the incumbent.

I think that's absolutely false. At this point, I support Gillibrand, but I also feel that Maloney has every right to run. I may not feel it's "wonderful," but I think it would be worse for our system to pressure her to back off just because I support the other candidate. For some of us, our commitment to process is a higher value than our commitment to any single person.

Also, pointing at two individual instances of possible hypocrisy (I don't really get the Chartock excerpt as an example of it) would not make the point either. One can always say "people in group X are crazy" and find a couple of people in that group who made ridiculous statements, but it doesn't follow that everyone in that group are crazy. Most of them may be quite sane. If the claim is true generally, it takes a deeper analysis to show it.

I think it's usually wise to back off writing in absolutes.


exactly (4.00 / 3)
I like the incumbent in this case a lot.  I also think a primary is a damn good idea, and people trying to suppress having one are making a huge mistake.

[ Parent ]
Agreed (4.00 / 3)
I fully support Maloney's right to call a primary. And in that primary, I intend to vote for Gillibrand. I don't see anything wrong with that.

[ Parent ]
Poor salesmanship. (4.00 / 1)
Not a good idea to start off the post by calling out supporters of a primary between an incumbent with very little political experience and long-time safely-seated Congresswoman who hasn't had to run a tough campaign in a dog's age as hypocrites. That just gets people's backs up and puts them on the defensive.  

I have no idea how the various candidates will run their individual primary campaigns, but Judging by the last two weeks, I have a pretty good idea how it's gonna be covered here and it won't be pretty.


What's everyone so afraid of? (4.00 / 1)
Caroline Maloney has every right to run for her party's nomination to the US Senate, as does any other party member. People are afraid a divisive primary will hurt Dems chances in the general? Nonsense.

Kirsten Gillibrand may have convinced party leaders she is a true progressive, but she has a lot to answer for to Democrats both down state and up regarding her positions on gun-control, immigration, taxes, etc. Maloney's participation more or less guarentees that these positions will be aired out and discussed, giving NY Dems a clear choice of who they want as their next elected Senator.

For all intents and purposes, there is no Republican Party left in the state of New York. Intraparty primary challenges will prove to be the battle ground for policy and philospohical differences. The Democratic Party in NY has room for many ideas, let them play out to their members.

Tax the Church.


No Republican party left? That's news to people where I live. (4.00 / 3)
Where Republicans outnumber Democrats 3 to 1. Getting cocky and certain of a perpetual dominance is exactly how the Republicans managed to nuke themselves on the national level.  

[ Parent ]
Yup. (4.00 / 3)
See my post here about how nasty internecine conflict among Democrats can leave a horrible taste in the mouths of voters.... perhaps enough to make them give the other party a chance. We have had Republican Senators before, and will again if NYC acts like the whole state is NYC.

Which is not to say there shouldn't be a primary.  But, let's make it a fair, clean effort.  Let's see what Maloney can say about why she would represent us well-- NOT what "Gillibrand has to answer for" (oh, and I get it that guns are a big safety issue in urban areas-- so, by all means, regulate them more there.... but, honestly, unless you are personally going to come keep the rabbits out of my garden and the raccoons off my chickens 24/7, you are going to have to accept that those of us who live in the wilder parts need to have the right to own a gun.  Hunting actually is important to many thinking, law-abiding people, even some progressives).


[ Parent ]
Preach it, sister. (4.00 / 2)
People conveniently forget that rarely does anyone complain about the rational and respectful primaries. I've said it probably a dozen times here: if this was about what Maloney thought she had to better offer the people of New York, instead of trying to destroy Gillibrand, then I for one wouldn't be upset in the least.

Obviously, that's not going to happen.  


[ Parent ]
Unions are the problem (0.00 / 0)
The unions are at the root of the corruption in politics in New York State.  Their money and influence keep this rotten operation going - and they deliver nothing of any value to their rank and file.  Keep PEF and CSEA out of of our politics!

Show me numbers (4.00 / 1)
You claim that the unions' money and influence are the problem; do you have numbers to back up those claims?

I do know that many industries have a lot of money -- and therefore influence -- in state politics.  I'm sure (although I do not have numbers) that unions are among the wealthy special interest groups that spend a lot of money funding campaigns, lobbying, etc.

But to state flatly that unions are "the" problem, rather than merely "a" problem, or "one of the" problems may be overstating the case.

Show me numbers that prove that unions spend far more than other special interest groups, and I'll give your claim the serious weight it deserves.


[ Parent ]
If there was a real reason for a primary (4.00 / 2)
I'd be all for it; in fact, I'm glad Jonathan Tasini is running just because he's going to ask questions that need to be asked.

However, the policy differences between Rep. Maloney and Sen. Gillibrand are minimal. There's no reason for Maloney to run except her (and Bloomberg's?) belief that only people from the Upper West Side should represent Buffalo or Watertown.


That's ridiculous. (0.00 / 0)
If there is "no difference" between Maloney and Gillibrand, you could just as easily argue that Gillibrand should be the one stepping aside. After all, Maloney is a much more senior member of the New York delegation.

Anyway, Gillibrand is very much a Park Avenue/Wall Street politician in her own way, so that cheap shot can be turned right around on you if you really want to go there.


[ Parent ]
Really? So how is Gillibrand "Park Avenue/Wall Street"? (0.00 / 0)
Hudson, I'm not joking when I say you're not allowed to make things up out of thin air. You think that you don't look foolish when called on it, but you do.

And seniority doesn't entitle you to a seat. Skill and policy do. Gillibrand is a much bigger rising star than Maloney and is out front on a lot of issues like gay rights and public healthcare.


[ Parent ]
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