About
The Albany Project seeks to return New York State Government to its rightful owners - the people.

Getting Started at the Albany Project

New York Blogwire



This belongs to you. Take it back...

Went to Massa's town hall: am feeling shaken.

by: davesnyd

Wed Aug 26, 2009 at 21:37:48 PM EDT


The general atmosphere at the Victor Town Hall hosted by Eric Massa was of a rude audience erupting in waves of boos, shouting questions out of turn, and trying to talk over Eric.

Specifically, Eric opened the evening with the pledge, a general recognition of veterans in the audience, and a recognition specifically of Korean war veterans (I'm not sure why he singled out that group).

Then, he asked for ten seconds of silence in memory of Senator Kennedy. The hall blew its top with boos, cat calls, and shouts of "Mary Jo".

It was downhill from there.

davesnyd :: Went to Massa's town hall: am feeling shaken.
The auditorium seated maybe somewhere between 800 and 1000. It was full; there were people in the hallway outside milling about; and another couple hundred in the gymnasium across from the auditorium, where they had piped in an audio feed.

The bulk of vocal members of the audience looked to be middle or upper-middle class, was clearly white, was 40s or 50s, and was loud and unwilling to listen.

People asked Eric to explain "the bill"-- I'm assuming, HR3200-- and Eric did, patiently and dilligently. But whenever "the hall" disagreed, they began yelling over him.

Eric was polite to a fault. He was the picture of calm, cool demeanor under fire. He never lost his cool, often tried to lighten the proceedings with small quips, and defended the right to speak of everyone with the microphone (most of whom disagreed with any reform whatsoever).

Now, the extreme members of the audience-- who were probably between one quarter and one third of those present-- might not feel that way, because he also admonished them to be polite and allow the person with the microphone their say. But I was in complete awe of his ability to remain calm, and cool, and polite.

Perhaps "polite to a fault" is the correct term. Many of the speakers came with the lies and cannards that are being spread by the extremist radio hosts (Limbaugh and his wannabes). Eric always listened politely, attempted to gently correct some (but not all) of the incorrect statements, but never wavered from an appearance of a respectful discussion.

I don't know that Eric could have done anything differently. He is a public servant, elected by the people, and needs to be respectful of them. But at what point when people are saying things that are bold faced lies should they be told "you are either lieing yourself or stupid for believing the lies pushed by Rush and his buddies"?

He never did. They called him a liar. They called him a communist. They said that he was trying to force them, kill them, destroy them. And he never more than nodded and responded politely.

When he attempted to explain that "the bill" wasn't socialized medicine, they screamed and yelled and booed. When he tried to tell them what socialized medicine was, they called him a liar. When he tried to tell them how money savings could be realized, they screamed and yelled and booed some more. When he tried to explain that the only real socialized medicine in the US is the VA-- and that every discussion he has with constituents about the VA has the constituents asking for more money for it-- they yelled him down.

I have a sense that the partisans who oppose the bill are building a narrative that goes something like this: "people who are advocating healthcare reform are bad/evil/communists. They are trying to force socialist medicine/communist/liberty removing change on me. By doing that they will destroy healthcare/kill me/kill my children." Next, they start thinking "by opposing the bill, I'm a patriot/liberty fighter/true American. Anyone who tells me otherwise is a communist/liberty hater. The more they try and tell me lies about it not being communism/socialized medicine/killing grandma, the more true my beliefs are."

You can't reach people who are thinking like that. You can't persuade them. You can't talk truth to them because they have essentially walled themselves off from listening to reality. They've decided on their mindset and demonstrated today, with their behavior towards Eric, that they will refuse to listen at all.

I think that those of us who believe that health care reform is necessary-- including the President-- are foolish to believe that any compromise is possible.

HR3200, from what I can tell, is a bill so watered down that it is next to useless. Specifically, without a true public option, it will not do enough to contain costs.

Nevertheless, the opposition to any reform is throwing every ephitet at it they can. In essence, we could be proposing something three steps to the left of 3200 (one step: true public option, two steps: single payer, three steps: British socialized medicine) and they would have no different arguments to use.

If we don't gain any bipartisan, compromise support by going with 3200, then why do it? Why not put the best bill out there possible and push it?

Previously, I suggested a compromise involving a true public option, simplifed to being an extension of Medicare.

Why do that? There won't be a compromise. There won't be bipartisan support.

Democrats in Congress need to pass something or else they look impotent and risk 1994 all over again. Why pass a poor bill that will cost more and provide less in the name of bipartisanship if they will receive no credit for bipartisanship from it?

It's time to consider whether the better plan moving forward is to pass a single payer, Canadian style system. Will they get heat and flack for it? What has become clear to me is that they will take no more fire than they would if they pass HR3200-- which has become the gold standard for the minimum possible bill that can pass. So why not pass a bill that will actually benefit the country, instead?

My minimum standards are this:

  • True public option
  • All premiums in both the public option and private insurance are set by community and age alone-- no discrimination in pricing or refusal to cover based on pre-existing conditions
  • The public option must have full lattitude to negotiate prices with all providers-- no Medicare D provision forbidding negotiations of pharmaceutical prices
  • There must be subsidies to low income individuals

And it should be named the "Edward Kennedy Universal Health Coverage act of 2009".

Or better yet-- keep the name and put it on a true single payer bill.

Tags: , , , (All Tags)
Print Friendly View Send As Email
Some additional... (0.00 / 0)
I left early-- about 7:50-- so while my observations might not be complete, the news reports I've seen indicate they are representative.

Perhaps saying that Eric was "shouted down" was an overstatement-- after 20-60 seconds, he was able to regain control of the PA system.

When reports of these meetings began to surface, some claimed that the opposition was being manufactured by some subset of the healthcare provider lobby (usually, the insurance companies). My gut tells me that wasn't the case last night. I do believe that they had been primed and riled up by the right wing noise machine (radio, Fox, and the right wing blogs) and had bought the lies provided by those sources hook line and sinker or else were passing them along and mouthing them as if they believed them.

I don't necessarily blame people for believing lies when they are spread by their preferred source of information (no matter how unreliable I consider that source of information to be). I do blame them for continuing to believe those lies after they have been thoroughly and repeatedly debunked. I also blame them for not being willing to listen to the Congressman who is trying to help inform them.

In short, as I said above, they've made up their mind; they are choosing to believe lies; and they are absolutely resistant to the truth.

That's what I blame them for.

Eric ran what can only be called the most civil and gentle of proceedings. That's his style; I think he sees his role as public servant there to hear as many constituents as possible.

I think there are a couple things he could do that might have seemed heavy handed to people who were only interested in jumping up and down and howling but would have improved the signal-to-noise ratio of the meeting:

  1. He opened with the pledge, a thanks to veterans, a discussion of democracy and how we could come together. I think before the meeting was opened up to comments, he could have also have:
    • Included more of his own story of service in the Navy and treatment for cancer
    • Provided definitions of different healthcare terms (especially socialized medicine, the British healthcare system, single payer, and public option) because they are being used incorrectly by opponents
    • Discussed government involvement in Medicare, the VA, and the military hospitals
    • Provided a synopsis of "the bill" and where he stands on it

    He did do these things sprinkled throughout his answers to questions but I suspect they would have been more effective up front.

  2. Instead of handing out speaking slots randomly, allow constituents from the venue (in this case, Fairport, even though it was ultimately held in Victor) to speak first; then constituents from the county (Monroe); then constituents from elsewhere in the district; then finally non-constituents. That may be unwieldy without prior sign-up.
  3. Limit all speakers to some reasonable time-- 60 or 90 seconds-- and cut the microphone after that time is up.
  4. Eject the rowdy speakers


Some thoughts... (0.00 / 0)
I wouldn't be so sure that this isn't connected to the health care lobby. Even some of the "grassroots" groups align themselves with the same groups that are funded by the insurance lobby. So while they might not be directly funded by them, they are willing to work with them.

Dave, you said that if Massa outlined the bill, discussed different terms and discussed government involvement that it probably would have been more effective. I probably would have agreed with you mere days ago, but after seeing what happened in Virginia the other night with Congressman Moran, the effectiveness of such a tactic would have been minimal. It wouldn't change the desire of those who come merely to yell and scream. While Congressman Moran was speaking the other night, they were shouting him down. This isn't about listening. It's about getting to the representative early and often by shouting out and yelling. It's their strategy.

I do agree that speakers should be limited. There are people who like to tell these three or five minute long stories to set up their question. That should be prevented. Set the time limit and tell them that they need to ask their question, not tell a story.

I also agree that we should be ejecting the rowdy people. Allow the citizens who came there to ask legitimate questions (from both sides) be heard.  


[ Parent ]
Why would he care about non-constituents at all? (4.00 / 1)
I have been screaming this from the rooftops all month.  If you are not a resident of Congressman Z's district, you have no business at Congressman Z's town hall meeting.  You should attend the town hall your own Congressman is holding.

People should be screened at the door at these things.  There is no reason Eric Massa or anyone else should tolerate people being bused in from out of district so they can be disruptive.  Let 'em scream outside.  You can call it undemocratic if you want, but that's where I stand with it.


[ Parent ]
I agree with you... (0.00 / 0)
But there's a problem with your logic.

In Western New York, guess how many of the four representatives are holding real, live town hall meetings that constituents can look into their representative's eyes and ask a question?

The answer is one. That representative is Eric Massa.

Brian Higgins isn't having them. Louise Slaughter hasn't held any. Chris Lee won't host one either. The telephone town hall meeting has been the more popular means of interacting with constituents, although it's not very personal and you can control the tone.

Massa has invited people from other districts to come to his meetings. Of course, Eric Massa also believes that talking to our opponents makes us better.

I agree that people should be screened at the door. That would keep some of the crusaders out who go from district to district yelling and shouting at representatives.

I am supportive of free speech, but I'm not supportive of speech that is hateful and offensive. That is where the line is drawn on free speech. It's one thing to ask questions. It's another to make threats.  


[ Parent ]
You whine about this... (0.00 / 1)
...and defend the bought-and-paid-for Silver Spoon daughter of a Monsanto high-level power boss who incorrectly identifies a Conservative operative two nights ago in Bethlehem.

You live in an odd world, my friend. Yours is a very selective space, one in which the application of ethics and objective criteria appears to deviate in accordance with your personal interests.

Scorn the citizens aflame, ignorant and angry.

Defend the Nepotism Princess who, along with many others of her lazy brood, helped to further said ignorance and anger.

Very odd, indeed, and very applicable to your own benefits and/or situation.

We have met the enemy, dear Brutus, and it is us.


[ Parent ]
You, my friend... (4.00 / 1)
Have a personal vendetta. You apparently have something very personal against Irene Jay Liu. It is something that has consumed you enough to hijack two threads now.

You also seem to have some personal issue with me. I would love to settle it, but I just had a wisdom tooth out and would much rather rest and sleep than deal with your pettiness.


[ Parent ]
Personal issue.... (0.00 / 1)
...Yeah, I have no use for incompetence, a lack of journalistic integrity, and Nepotism-based employment.

Probably makes me a Commie or a Fascist to expect excellence, journalistic professionalism and honesty, and merit. (shrug)

And, no, I did not apply for the job that Daddy's Little Girl was given.

In my world, as socialist and/or Marxist as it may be, you do fine work, you get praise. You cover for somebody who screwed up, you get cuffed upside the head.

Best of luck with the wisdom tooth. Take care and be well. And consider improving your own consistency on these issues.


[ Parent ]
Simple screening (4.00 / 1)
Rather than bar anyone from coming in just because they don't live in the only district where town hall meetings are being held, require everyone who enters to sign a piece of paper that says that under penalty of ejection and ticketing for disorderly conduct they will behave themselves.

Obviously the language has to be more rigorous, but that's the idea.

I wonder how many of the shouters will be willing to sign such a paper...


[ Parent ]
These People are Disturbing (4.00 / 1)
Because they are disturbed.  Having attended one of these things with Scott Murphy (he was great, as it sounds Massa was), a few thoughts on how to minimize the chaos:
1.  Do it outside, on the weekend during the day.  Atmosphere is less pressured.
2.  Scott had his kids with him.  This put a little restraint on how obnoxious these people could be.
3.  Make all questioners say where they live.  A lot of them are "outside agitators."

Ultimately, these people are beyond the fringe, and not representative of much of anybody.  I also wouldn't get distracted talking about single-payer - it isn't going to happen (even on a purely partisan basis) and frankly given how deeply our system is tied up with private insurance, I really don't think it is a good idea now.  Other countries have shown that you can have excellent universal healthcare without single-payer, using combinations of public and private plans.  We have a good bill in the House, and a good bill (the HELP bill) in the Senate.  If the Democrats just keep their eye on the ball, we'll pass it.


The Albany Project

Please take my Blog Reader Project survey.

Menu

Make a New Account

Username:

Password:



Forget your username or password?


Search




Advanced Search


NY blogs

Politics

Adirondack Almanack
Buffalo Geek
Buffalo Pundit
Capitol Confidential
Daily Gotham
Daily Politics
DMI Blog
DragonFlyEye
Empire Page
Empire Zone
Gothamist
Gotham Gazette
Group News Blog
Jason Gooljar
Left of the Hudson
Living In Dryden
Lost In The Ozone
McHugh Watch
Nassau GOP Watch
Planet Albany
Politicker NY
Politics on the Hudson
Reform NY
Rochester Turning
Room 8
Simply Left Behind
Take19
The Community Alliance

Think Tanks

Brennan Center for Justice
Citizens Budget Commission
Citizens Union
Drum Major Institute
Fiscal Policy Institute
New Democracy Project
Progressive States

Organizations

Citizen Action
Citizens for Better Government in New York
Common Cause
New York Citizens for Clean Elections
Progressive States Network
>
National Blogs

Politics

AmericaBlog
Crooks and Liars
DailyKos
Digby
Eschaton
Firedoglake
MyDD
Political Cortex
Senate Guru
Skippy
Swing State Project
Talk Left
Talking Points Memo
The Right's Field

LBAN Network

Agonist
All Spin Zone
AlterNet
AMERICAblog
American Street
ArchPundit
BAGNewsnotes
BartCop
Big Head DC
Blogging of the Pres
BlogACTIVE
Bluegrass Report
Bluegrass Roots
Blue Indiana
BlueJersey
Blue Mass. Group
BlueOregon
BlueNC
Bob Geiger
Booman
BRAD Blog
Brendan Calling
Buckeye State Blog
Burnt Orange Report
Calitics
Capitol Annex
Carpetbagger Report
Chris Floyd
Clay Cane
Cliff Schecter
Comments from Left Field
Confined Space
Corrente
Cotton Mouth
Crooks and Liars
culture kitchen
Cursor
Daily Gotham
Daily Kos
David Corn
Democrats.com
Dem Bloggers
Deride and Conquer
Democratic Underground
Digby
DovBear
Drudge Retort
Ed Cone
ePluribus Media
Eschaton
Ezra Klein
Feministe
Feministing
Firedoglake
Fired Up
First Draft
Frameshop
Greatscat!
Green Mountain Daily
Greg Palast
Hoffmania
Horse's Ass
Hughes for America
In Search of Utopia
Is That Legal?
Jesus' General
Jon Swift
Juan Cole
Keystone Politics
Kick!
KnoxViews
Las Vegas Gleaner
Latino Pundit
Lawyers, Guns and Money
Left Coaster
Left in the West
Liberal Avenger
Liberal Oasis
Loaded Orygun
Mahablog
Majikthise
Make Them Accountable
Matthew Yglesias
MaxSpeak
Media Girl
Michigan Liberal
Minnesota Campaign Report
Minnesota Monitor
MyDD
My Left Nutmeg
My Left Wing
My Two Sense
Nathan Newman
Needlenose
Nevada Today
News Corpse
News Dissector
Newshoggers
News Hounds
Nitpicker
Oliver Willis
onegoodmove
OpenLeft
PageOneQ
Pam's House Blend
Pandagon
People's Rep. of Seabrook
PinkDome
Politics1
Political Animal
Political Wire
Poor Man Institute
Prairie State Blue
Progressive Historians
Raising Kaine
Raw Story
Reno Discontent
Republic of T
Rhode Island's Future
Rochester Turning
Rocky Mountain Report
Rod 2.0
Rox Populi
Rude Pundit
Sadly, No!
Satirical Political Report
Seeing The Forest
Shakesville
SirotaBlog
SistersTalk
Skippy the Bush Kangaroo
Slacktivist
Smirking Chimp
SquareState
Suburban Guerrilla
Swing State Project
Talking Points Memo
Talk Left
Tapped
Taylor Marsh
Tattered Coat
Texas Kaos
The Albany Project
The Blue State
The Democratic Daily
The Hollywood Liberal
The Reaction
The Talent Show
This Modern World
Town Called Dobson
Turn Maine Blue
Uppity Wisconsin
Wampum
War and Piece
WashBlog
Watching the Watchers
West Virginia Blue
Young Philly Politics
Young Turks

Register to Vote: Rock the Vote, powered by Working Assets Wireless

blog radio

Get the albany project in your inbox! Just enter your email address

Delivered by FeedBurner

____________________


Active Users
Currently 0 user(s) logged on.

Powered by: SoapBlox