NY-Sen: Well spoken.

Sheesh. (4.00 / 4)

Since way before even I was born.  Gotta be the definition of a second class citizen.  Here's hoping Vito listens.

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by: robinia @ Sun Jan 31, 2010 at 00:37:42 AM UTC

Technically, Moynihan was upstate (4.00 / 1)

His official place of residence was his farm near Oneonta, which is in Upstate.  Yes, I know, he was from NYC, but officially, he was an upstater.  

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by: Norbrook @ Sun Jan 31, 2010 at 01:19:51 AM UTC

not originally (4.00 / 1)

he only moved up there upon being elected to the senate  

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by: nrafter530 @ Sun Jan 31, 2010 at 22:57:15 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

? (4.00 / 1)

I always thought it was just a second home...

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by: robinia @ Mon Feb 01, 2010 at 00:24:17 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Did he have it before '76 (4.00 / 2)

I was under the impression he established the second home after being elected to the Senate.

Anyway, he was initially a downstater. He went to high school in Harlem and his main residence was NYC.  

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by: nrafter530 @ Mon Feb 01, 2010 at 03:59:45 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Unfortunately, Lopez is more likely (4.00 / 2)

to follow Bloomberg's lead on this.

But kudos to Schroeder for trying.  

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by: devtob @ Sun Jan 31, 2010 at 03:26:16 AM UTC

If ever there was proof money is a corrosive force in politics... (4.00 / 4)

... Mike Bloomberg is the personification of that proof.

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by: Adama D. Brown @ Sun Jan 31, 2010 at 03:45:00 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Vito Couldn't Give A Crap (4.00 / 3)

It's not about upstate or downstate but about Vito and his wants.  Hope the District Leaders and all Brooklyn Pols balk him on this one and stop kissing his rear.

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by: ROSALIE907 @ Sun Jan 31, 2010 at 03:56:40 AM UTC

When Mark Schroeder took office (4.00 / 3)

He was so reform minded and upstate-focused that Silver gave him effectively a closet for an office and nearly kicked him out of the majority.

Glad to see that not every last bit of that has been beaten him yet.

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by: Amherst Guy @ Sun Jan 31, 2010 at 07:33:34 AM UTC

Just found an article from Artvoice (4.00 / 3)

stating that Schroeder is also (again) looking to dump Silver. The article, written by former Hoyt staffer Jeremy Toth, says that he's doing it so Pigeon won't primary him, but given that Schroeder tried to get Espada ousted this fall (Which would cost Pigeon his job and most of his power), I don't think they're up for doing each other favors.

Everyone should read the second article I linked to. I'm beginning to wonder if Schroeder is EXACTLY the hero we've all been looking for here...

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by: Amherst Guy @ Sun Jan 31, 2010 at 07:47:58 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

This letter should be copied to every politico and citizen (4.00 / 4)

in the 5 boroughs that believes the rest of the state is simply a support satelite for them rather than an area that also deserves representation.  

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by: leftigurl @ Sun Jan 31, 2010 at 17:32:20 PM UTC

I. Do. Not. Care. (0.00 / 0)

You don't need to be from upstate to represent upstate interests.

There are plenty of men who are better on "women's issues" than some women (see, e.g., Phyllis Shlafley).

There are some Caucasians who are better on some minority issues than some minorities (see, e.g., Michael Steele, Clarence Thomas).

You don't have to be a member of the working class to be the greatest champion of the working class in history (see, e.g., FDR).

I want to get past all this identity politics. Let's just go with the best person for the job. In this case, it's Gillibrand for many, many reasons. But where she's from shouldn't be one of them. What she knows about upstate should matter, but I can easily imagine some downstaters who have better policy ideas for upstate than some upstaters.

Location is not nearly as important as knowledge and judgment.

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by: dsimon @ Tue Feb 02, 2010 at 05:54:00 AM UTC

Please ennumerate (4.00 / 1)

Am thrilled if you know of individuals (hopefully in elected offices, or at least staffers) who have good policy ideas for upstate.  Enumerate, please.  It would be REALLY GREAT if my info was out-of-date, and now downstate state and local officials frequently read about and visit and listen to upstate people and know the issues they face, and have good policy ideas.  Please be specific and name names, because I really want to make contact with these people!  All the ones I know seem to entirely ignore us....

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by: robinia @ Tue Feb 02, 2010 at 16:05:43 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Isn't The Point Clear? (0.00 / 0)

First, it should be obvious that a fairly knowledgeable person would be a better choice than someone who is not knowledgeable, and that such knowledge is not necessarily dependent on geography. My point is that such determination can and should be based on the evaluation of the individual, and that where one is from is not a necessary part of making that determination.

Second, Hillary Clinton seemed to defend upstate interests just fine, and I don't think Westchester can be deemed "upstate." But perhaps others disagree with her performance as Senator regarding upstate. (One can argue that she was barely a New Yorker, but then she certainly wasn't an upstater.)

Third, would you take an upstate Republican over a downstate Democrat since the upstater would presumably know more about upstate issues?

If an upstater really is the best choice for the job, great. But I gave several examples of how some people outside a group can do a better job of representing that group than some people inside the group. I see no reason why the upstate/donwstate issue should be any different, hence no reason why downstaters should be dismissed out of hand. I proposed only that people be evaluated on their merits.

"All the ones I know seem to entirely ignore us...."

I think it's well known that one can't be a senator from New York without supporting federal laws protecting upstate dairies, even though it means families throughout the state wind up paying more for milk. Since it's questionable policy except from the perspective of those being protected, I think the phrase "entirely ignore" is a little strong.

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by: dsimon @ Wed Feb 03, 2010 at 05:25:37 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

somehow I'm guessing (4.00 / 1)

you don't live Upstate.

It's generally easier to dismiss "identity politics" when you don't share the identity or see the problem.

I'm perfectly happy to work with downstaters - I lived in NYC for a while, and my brother still does.  However, having downstate folks running everything is not a recipe for a happy state, whatever their merits.

(And given the state of NYC's Democratic political machinery, the 'merits' aren't entirely clear either.)

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by: simonstl @ Wed Feb 03, 2010 at 13:02:16 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I Don't Live Upstate, But Why Should It Matter? (0.00 / 0)

I don't live upstate, but I would have no problem with two upstate senators, and an upstate governor, etc. I see no inherent reason why upstate senators couldn't represent downstate interests. If they had the best overall knowledge and ability, I'd vote for them. Frankly, I don't care where Gillibrand is from, or Schumer, or Ford for that matter. And I don't think it should matter, nor has anyone really explained why it should.

And by "merits," I do not use the definition of NYC's political machinery. I mean the person's overall knowledge, ability, and judgment.

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by: dsimon @ Wed Feb 03, 2010 at 21:48:28 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Hillary wasn't from upstate (4.00 / 1)

Of course, she wasn't from downstate either, but she made a point of learning about upstate issues and working to try to solve them.  That's how she got her incredibly high ratings when she ran for reelection in 2006.

It also doesn't hurt a downstate elected official to visit, particularly during the summer and fall breaks -- what could be nicer than going north during the summer, and seeing the amazing colors in the fall, while simultaneously meeting people and listening to their problems and ideas on solutions?

Someone elect me quick, so I can make those trips on the taxpayers' dime.

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by: Dan Jacoby @ Wed Feb 03, 2010 at 22:02:09 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

it matters because frankly (4.00 / 1)

upstate folks get sick of downstate folks dismissing their concerns over and over and over again.  You're just the latest in a very long line, one you apparently haven't noticed.

I wish downstate Democrats would take Dan's advice and come visit for a while - too many of them seem to have absolutely no clue that the political climate up here is very very different.

Even upstate Democrats frequently get fed up with being stuck with whatever comes out of the downstate sausage grinder and being told that it's all merit.

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by: simonstl @ Wed Feb 03, 2010 at 22:44:35 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Specifics, Please? (0.00 / 0)

"upstate folks get sick of downstate folks dismissing their concerns over and over and over again."

Such as? I just read a NY Times column which had Schumer fuming over an Obama proposal to remove a subsidy for some upstate manufacturer. Turns out it was the wrong subsidy, but Schumer was ready to fight for it. And as I wrote before, every senator pretty much has to support federal dairy price supports which helps upstaters but hurts everyone else.

Downstaters don't often get what they want either. When was the last time there was a coherent urban policy proposal at the federal level?

Again, there has really been no rebuttal of the point that knowledge and judgment are what's most important, and that it's better to have a knowledgeable downstater than a less competent upstater. Or would we prefer a Republican senator from upstate because, well, the person is from upstate? There is no inherent reason why a downstater can't learn about upstate and do an excellent job for those constituents; hence there is no reason to have an upstater just for the sake of having an upstater, just as there is no inherent reason for having a downstater for the sake of having a downstater.
_________

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02...

"Before the budget document even went out, Senator Chuck Schumer of New York had issued a scathing press release attacking plans to eliminate $5 million in grants to manufacturers of worsted wool.

"I will fight to make sure this proposal never sees the light of day," said Schumer, who claimed that dropping the grants could ruin "Rochester's iconic Hickey Freeman," a men's clothing company. It turned out that Hickey Freeman gets a different wool-manufacturer break entirely. Rochester is saved!

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by: dsimon @ Thu Feb 11, 2010 at 06:07:34 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

hello? is this downstate blindness year? (0.00 / 0)

Did you remember that for a long time Chuck Schumer was considered unusual and unique for his 62-county strategy?  Or that Schumer seems generally happy with any reason whatsoever he can find to jump in front of cameras?

I'm with you on Gillibrand supporters being too sensitive about challenges to their candidate, but in every other way you seem insistent on playing the guy from Downstate who places zero value on Upstate opinion.

"there has really been no rebuttal of the point that knowledge and judgment are what's most important,"

There doesn't have to be a rebuttal.  New York politics is almost never meritocratic, if you haven't noticed.  And Gillibrand, to be blunt, strikes me easily the most knowledgeable and wise of our statewide elected officials at present.  Not that it's a difficult field, and I'm certainly aware that most of New York State hasn't seen that in action yet.

I'm not sure what you thought you were achieving by attacking a basic divide in New York politics, but you've ensured I won't take you seriously in the future.  

Thank you, though, for one thing: you've helped me shift back toward an explicitly Upstate-separatist position.  We need to solve our own problems, without help from folks like you.

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by: simonstl @ Thu Feb 11, 2010 at 13:36:10 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Because New York City can't handle governing the state any more (4.00 / 1)

That is why it's important to develop Upstate leadership.  

New York City has effective political control of the state, but they are so mired in their own problems that they are no longer able to effectively administer an entire state as its political center.  These problems are just going to grow worse the longer the economic crisis drags on.  And there's really no end in sight to the crisis.  When it's over, things will not be the same.  America (and Wall Street) will not be #1, just like London used to be the world's financial capital and no longer is.  

New York City and its native politicians will only be looking out for themselves, and that's perfectly understandable.  But Upstate citizens need to prepare for these changing times by staking their own political claims on statewide office.

Upstate cannot count on there being Schumers in the future.  This is why a Gillibrand has appeal.  Having a Gillibrand in the Senate, who is at least identified as "an Upstate senator" also sends a signal that Upstate citizens don't have to sit back and not compete for offices.

In the economic world, the term "decoupling" is often talked about, and I think we can use this term politically as well.  Gillibrand represents a stab at decoupling greater NYS politics away from NYC which I think is a healthy impulse at this particular point - for both "sides" since no one's claiming that NYC is doing so great with this big state attached to it by a chain, either.

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by: NYCO @ Thu Feb 11, 2010 at 14:10:37 PM UTC

[ Parent ]