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Why there will always be an Upstate

by: NYCO

Sun Mar 28, 2010 at 13:48:08 PM EDT


The Ithaca Journal has a Gannett article today that focuses on hydrofracking and the competing demands of upstate landowners who want to exercise their mineral rights, versus the interests of the New York City watershed.  This is obviously a much more direct confrontation between upstate and downstate citizen interests than was the long-simmering NYRI dispute, which turned a wide swath of southeastern New York into a big and mostly unified "NIMBY" zone that the downstate media barely noticed.  

Also today in the NY Times is a series of editorials on "Can New York (State) Be Saved?"  Upstaters' hackles may rise at this particular response, but in truth we've seen this attitude before, and I'd rather spend this diary considering the real "truth about Upstate" as it relates to "The City."

NYCO :: Why there will always be an Upstate
It's occurred to me lately that politicians and economists and urbanists from New York City have a peculiarly narrow way of thinking about the earth - specifically, of thinking about the concept of territory.  When you consider how much money is thrown around down there in the trading of tiny apartments and corners on city blocks, their strange myopia about space (and its profits and demands) is more understandable.  Their conception is of New York City as a city alone, or maybe as a metro area, but not as a watershed - a watershed that lies on unfamiliar physical, cultural and political territory.  In other words, the popular conception of the true northern border of the city seems a little fuzzy.

Professor Moss' prescription for lightening New York's load (it's unclear whether he means "New York" the state or "New York" the shining city) is something I've heard before.  And it remains puzzling to me why, when considering splitting up the state or turning away from some part of it, NYC-secession cheerleaders seem to believe that they're actually ever going to get rid of Upstate.  

This is just as magical a line of thinking, as the magical thinking of Republican state senators who pretend their constituents are paying for NYC welfare queens.  Unless they start building some serious desalinization facilities, NYC will always have an Upstate to deal with in some fashion... but no Albany to do it through.  

So I'm not sure how that's such an automatically great arrangement for the Big Apple, to be honest.  Whereas, the cities and towns of Upstate (that is, Upstate proper, outside of the NYC watershed) would certainly be poorer initially; but would actually be independent, free to develop a polity (or several regional ones) represented by a newly developed political class able to concentrate on their own pressing issues - to accept or fight off federal or corporate help (or "help") as best they can.  

I dunno - that sounds like Upstate proper definitely gets the better deal in the long term.

I don't understand why a city-state at the head of an empire (in this case, NYC) would voluntarily decide to let its northern border turn into a wasteland full of barbarians.  Unless they do "highland clearances" on their watershed, the barbarians will still be causing them some degree of trouble.  Barbarians tend to get nastier, more cohesive, and occasionally, cannier, the fewer their numbers get.  (New York City's political and hence physical territory, as of 2010, still encompasses the whole state via Albany.  Has any empire in history ever successfully downsized its physical and political territory and maintained its world domination?)  

I think there is a fantasy about the other struggling parts of the state - that the old place is just going to clear out and slowly become a big wildlife park with no human activity (that seems to be Professor Moss' hazy conception of what would happen, anyway).  I don't think so.  One way or another, clearly, there will always be an Upstate for NYC to deal with.  

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Can you point (4.00 / 3)
to one single voice of actual consequence in the five boroughs that advocates for secession? Maybe I need to get out more, or maybe it's my pronounced intolerance of cant, but I don't recall ever having heard that argument made in earnest.

And, no, one struggling mini op-ed on the back page of Week in Review - right under Al freaking D'Amato, for the love of god - doesn't count.


I don't hear much about secession explicitly from Downstate (4.00 / 2)
well, since Norman Mailer, anyway.

What I do hear constantly is "who gives a [insert choice of expletive] about Upstate."  Ed Koch is probably the most famous for his gingham dress comment, but I feel very comfortable arguing that Downstate has generally little interest in Upstate, beyond suburban possibilities, a few key parks, prison and college student exports, and water.

We usually don't exist in that political conversation, and when we do exist it's usually as a problem.


[ Parent ]
history of secession sentiment (4.00 / 2)
Wikipedia has a whole page on it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S...

and it doesn't even mention Leon Panetta's comments on the subject:

http://blog.insidetheapple.net...


[ Parent ]
how could I have forgotten Vallone? (4.00 / 1)
Bloomberg I figured was just the usual hot air, but Vallone's been serious about this for a while.

[ Parent ]
I don't think (4.00 / 2)
that ideas first floated during the Civil War should have much currency in 2010. The only identifiable group talking about secession today are the teabaggers, and they're obviously coming from a different place, the place that's freaking out that the President of the United States is African-American.

I'd suggest that's not good company to keep for Progressives.

I'd also suggest that the argument 'ha ha, we have your water' is weak tea. New York City is the anchor economy of the East Coast. If you game this through and say, 'Okay, Upstate secedes', I kind of doubt that the Federal government would let the City's water supply be threatened.

As roatti says below, I think we'd all be better off if we stop treating the Upstate/Downstate divide as a zero-sum game, because really, it's not.


[ Parent ]
anchor (4.00 / 2)
New York City is the anchor economy of the East Coast

Well, for now.

But it doesn't actually produce (or export, or even really import) anything of value, unless you think big bank shares are valuable.  Financial services are only as sound as the economy they service, media services are becoming decentralized, and world headquarters of various sorts (United Nations, etc), can always be moved.


[ Parent ]
Though you noted the Taxi Driver architecture went away (4.00 / 1)
on your blog, it's not that difficult for me to forecast a future for NYC where the world looks like Taxi Driver again, and quickly.

The massive infusion of cash the city has seen from the financial sector isn't guaranteed to continue, and the rise in financial salaries and the massive gentrification of Manhattan seem to move in lockstep.  Not that it's all Wall Street salaries, but that amount of cash coming in creates many reinforcing positive effects.

Much as I love publishing - I work in it, and even used to work in it in NYC - I have real doubts about its future, and that of centralized media generally.

The UN seems to me like the least likely of those pieces to move, though you never know.

NYC used to have (through about the 1950s) an amazingly diversified economy.  There's still more diversity there than in a lot of places, but the number of economic drivers has shrunk.


[ Parent ]
I misspoke (4.00 / 2)
There is still manufacturing in NYC, of course, just not on the scale it used to.  It's still an important East Coast port.  It's a cultural hub - but "culture" is only an end product that comes out at the very finish of a total economic production system, much like a delicious sausage gets produced from the leftover bits after the rest of the pig has been rendered.  (The professional artist/artisan class, and the stuff they produce, is balanced high atop the pinnacle of any economic system.)  

But New York City's basic old job - importing foreign goods to the American interior and exporting raw materials out - was finished a long time ago, and what it does now is more rarefied, less tangible (trading more in debt and exotic financial products than in stocks and bonds), and more vulnerable (so far, in theory) to the winds of change.


[ Parent ]
I don't think that was much of a misspeaking (4.00 / 1)
If you have the change, track down Working Class New York, and you'll get a sense of just how much went away.  

There's still industry there - but I suspect New York City lost about the same share of its industry since WWII as did Upstate New York.  The Port of New York seems to have gone the way of the Port of Buffalo, except for the New Jersey and some Staten Island parts.

NYC just had an easier time reusing the buildings, and heck, even the High Line.


[ Parent ]
harbor (4.00 / 2)
Did they ever dredge the harbors to accommodate the new style of larger container ships?  I heard that was a project in the works for the Port of New York.  There was supposedly some concern that Halifax was going to get to it first.

[ Parent ]
I don't think comparing this to the Tea Party folks (4.00 / 1)
will make you very many friends.

I expect that the water issue would be a key question in any of these conversations - it always is.  Note that I even had my (fictional) right-wing secessionist leaving the watershed with NYC.

And finally, it doesn't have to be a zero-sum game.  It just usually is - though maybe that's not so obvious to folks from the place that recovered from its 1970s debacle.  


[ Parent ]
I'm not comparing anything. (4.00 / 1)
But you're positing that the City wants to separate itself from 'the barbarians' - not my choice of words - and I just don't see that.

I'll echo again what roatti said downthread: we're better able to solve the problems we have, and they are substantial, together rather than apart. And our main problem, frankly, is that our state government sucks. It doesn't seem to suck any less in Brooklyn than Buffalo, I think.


[ Parent ]
actually, I don't think most Downstate folks particularly notice Upstate (4.00 / 1)
Vallone is something of an exception, though I suspect he's more of a leading indicator.  It seems pretty clear that Downstate newsrooms use maps that end at Yonkers (maybe Poughkeepsie?), too, though Albany's up there somewhere.

A key question, though, is why our state government sucks.  I'd suggest that an important part of that is the never comfortable mix of places it tries to oversee, and the indigestible policies that result.

I can think of a few policies within the existing framework that might help that - say, shifting all funding for education to a much more seriously progressive income tax and completely away from property tax.  There'd be a giant sucking sound as Downstate money went north and west and Upstate farmers could relax just slightly.

Could that happen?  I'm guessing that if it did, we'd hear a lot more squawking from Downstate, despite its progressives.

(Apologies below accepted.)


[ Parent ]
Somewhat disagree. (4.00 / 4)
I've been banging the drum for economic development Upstate for years, cf. here.

I would also argue that you can't view the Upstate economic malaise in isolation from the decline of manufacturing across the Northeast in general. We Americans used to build stuff - cars, machines, whatnot else. Now we import cheap-ass crap from China.

I don't know if a state-level economic development strategy might be the answer to that in the mid- to long-term, but I do know that our government is too shortsighted to even contemplate the idea. Shifting education revenue sources, as you suggest, might be a part of that.

But thank you for accepting my apology :-)


[ Parent ]
Yup (4.00 / 1)
Deindustrialization of NY and the US is official policy everywhere.  The line is, we are going to stay ahead of the pack by inventing, patenting and owning everything, then live off of gambling on the royalties.  Or something.  Anyway, the world isn't swallowing our predatory intellectual property regime, and we still seem to need manufactured goods.  More frequently, even, now that they are made in China, imported by Walmart, and break faster.

Rebuilding manufacturing is an idea less popular than most-- perhaps even less popular than secession of upstate-- but, it is what NY needs.

As far as why the government doesn't work, I think it has a lot more to do with concentrations of wealth and power than with the antipathy that 40 years of "the arrangement" between legislative houses fostered.  That's more effect than cause.


[ Parent ]
It's Yonkers. (4.00 / 1)
To them, everything north of Westchester is "upstate".  

[ Parent ]
company to keep (4.00 / 2)
I'd suggest that's not good company to keep for Progressives.

Well, most teabaggers would also say the sky is blue and that NY property owners are overstressed by their taxes.  Many people would agree on the first point, and quite a few Democrats agree on the second.  I'm not sure what the exact link is between those two points and racism.


[ Parent ]
That's not what (4.00 / 3)
I was trying to imply. My apologies if that's how it was taken.

[ Parent ]
Another point (4.00 / 1)
IIRC, I saw this elsewhere, but the biggest (in dollar terms) part of the economy of the state is agriculture, not the financial sector.  

[ Parent ]
With all due respect... (4.00 / 1)
That is a perennially recycled lie.  I'm sure you HAVE seen it elsewhere, as it gets said and repeated and repeated, often by politicians, always by agriculture interests.  But, it is just not objectively the case.  Agriculture's contribution to the economy can be hard to measure accurately for a number of technical reasons I won't bore you with.  But, no matter how you measure it, it is not "NY's biggest sector" in any dollar way, just in land mass.

[ Parent ]
Mitchell Moss may have Downstate blinders, but mostly (4.00 / 1)
he's just making the traditional idiot planning mistake of wanting only to focus on places that are willing to be planned:

"Instead, Albany needs to make a strategic decision to invest in a handful of places upstate that are willing to do the serious work of revitalizing their own economies and that have the right mix of educational institutions, skilled labor and entrepreneurial know-how to compete in the 21st century."

In other words, Albany should offer a paternal hand of assistance only to places willing to listen to schmucks like him and absorb his values.

Annoyingly, I suspect one of his favorite places is my neighborhood - and worse, I suspect that too many people here would be flattered by his interest.

Hydrofracking is way more complicated than a simple Upstate-Downstate conflict, but the watershed certainly adds a dimension.


He'as an ass (4.00 / 2)
who seems to forget that virtually the entire SUNY system, along with a number of top universities across the line are located in those same cities.    My first thought on reading that is  "he must have tenure."  

[ Parent ]
In a world with less fossil-fuel dependence (4.00 / 4)
...upstate is downstate's foodshed.  In a world where a transition away from fossil-fuel dependence is foolishly resisted, upstate is downstate's natural gas field (despoiling the water and agriculture permanently, deriving gas for a few decades).  I think we upstaters should influence that choice.  Not because we are barbarians, but because we are world citizens with a commitment to leaving our own land in a habitable condition, and the rest of the earth, too.

the questions there become (4.00 / 1)
Whether Upstate would have better negotiating terms within the state or separately, and whether Downstate's progressive politics or its rapacious hunger would have a bigger impact on its negotiating posture.

[ Parent ]
I'm betting on... (4.00 / 1)
it's slavish following of fashion and the cache of the locavore movement.  Fashion and trendiness have trumped politics and even hunger before...

[ Parent ]
They have impounded our water, (4.00 / 1)
but they certainly haven't availed themselves of the food. Did you know that the contract to supply apples to NYC schools was awarded to......Wisconsin (or somewhere around there)?

At least, they were, until then Congresswoman Gillibrand found out and did something about it. I believe that as of a little over a year ago, NYC school kids are eating native apples.  


[ Parent ]
A lot of folks worked on that for a long time... (4.00 / 3)
I was even one of them. ;->

But, yeah, Gillibrand got the law changed that allowed it to happen.  She's alright.


[ Parent ]
Upstate and Downstate need to be more economically integrated (4.00 / 4)
Upstate actually has a lot of economic strengths, like a very educated and hard-working labor force, good research universities, amazing agricultural products, good wind power resources, and great ecological beauty for eco-tourism.  

If we actually had a state government that wasn't run by numbskulls, we could use's NYC's capital to spur more investments in these sectors and help upstate enormously.

But that actually requires long-term vision and critical infrastructure investments, not exactly our legislature's strong suits.


True (4.00 / 3)
and we also have water power. :)  I think one of the issues with the numbskulls is that they are so focused on the City, they aren't interested in the strengths - or strengthening - of Upstate.    

[ Parent ]
that was more or less what Spitzer talked about (4.00 / 2)
but it vanished awfully fast.

[ Parent ]
Along with his whole agenda (4.00 / 3)
At least Spitzer was somewhat of a policy wonk, despite his personal failings.  Now we have another Governor with severe woman issues but with no interest in governing.

[ Parent ]
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