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Recounts gone mad?

by: simonstl

Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 21:23:12 PM EDT


In a sane world, control of the New York State Senate would not mean so much that trench warfare breaks out after the election:

There is the growing possibility that all 61,700 votes cast on electronic machines in the contest will have to be recounted -- by hand, and witnessed by arguing lawyers, clerks and sheriff's deputies....

Until Thursday, all sides were thinking the dispute was just over the more than 3,000 uncounted paper ballots in the race. Now the talk is of scrutinizing every single ballot cast.

There is a process for election boards to canvass the machine votes in ways that can start out as a random audit of 3 percent of the machines. If there is a deviation in the recount of less than 2 percent from the original count, lawyers say, then the machine votes are considered to be valid. But that doesn't mean they won't be challenged by lawyers.

Democratic lawyers say they will likely press to have all the machine ballots recounted by hand, a process that, if permitted by the courts, could drag on. In the 60th District, it would mean checking 61,700 separate pieces of paper -- with each one examined, and argued over, by lawyers.

Election lawyers, who can earn $800 an hour, will then demand votes in dispute be set aside in boxes categorized by the kind of objection. A judge then would settle those disagreements, like whether a vote counts if someone circled a candidate's name instead of, as the instructions say, filling in an oval box.

I don't even know what to say, except to be extremely grateful that none of those races involves Tompkins County. I'm pretty certain that none of this will improve voter confidence or interest in our political institutions, however. A paper trail is a great thing - until you have 61,700 pieces of paper to sort out at an hourly rate of many thousands of dollars. Once again, I long for the lever machines that at least prevented this crazy possibility.

If this is really what "Democratic lawyers" are considering, maybe it's time for the party to take a deep breath and step back from this particular precipice.

simonstl :: Recounts gone mad?
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Recounts gone mad? | 20 comments
Right, and Al Franken should have just conceded (4.00 / 4)
No less than 3 races for the State Senate are 50-50 according to the NYT. The outcome will determine whether the GOP is able to continue to gerrymander the Senate so that 40% of the voters have a majority of the representation, a well as how US House districts are redrawn when NY loses seats.

Democratic officials are obligated to defend the interest of Democratic (and WFP) voters.  The GOP is hardly shy about fighting for every seat.  Control of the Senate will also determine the priorities in the state budget, over a TRILLION dollars in the decade when the district lines approved by the incoming Legislature are in effect.


And maybe we'll get to sort that out by 2012 (0.00 / 0)
when it's time for the next election.

Sorry, Albanius - I'm well aware of what's at stake.  I also think spot-checking machine counts is an excellent idea, especially in the wake of the sudden shift of votes in Tim Bishop's Congressional district.

At the same time, however, this feels a lot more like a delaying tactic to make up for Antoine Thompson's lousy performance than a plausible recount solution - or to put it another way, a lot more like Norm Coleman than like Al Franken.


[ Parent ]
Count every vote (0.00 / 0)
The cost of a complete recount is far less than the roundoff error in different budget priorities.  

[ Parent ]
Now you sound like George Phillips, (0.00 / 0)
refusing to concede to Hinchey.  I think I'll stick with the Norm Coleman comparison.

"He wants every vote to count," Hutson said of why Phillips decided not to concede on Thursday, as originally planned.


[ Parent ]
Simon, we need to count the votes. (4.00 / 1)
There is every possibility of a programming error in the machines.  Why do you want to blindly trust the machines?

Counting is not that slow.

The issue is the lawyers who can challenge every single ballot and charge high rates to do so.... what's up with that?  They don't have that in other countries with hand-counted paper ballots.


[ Parent ]
Oh, is the district requesting counting volunteers?... (0.00 / 0)
Having seen it in other countries, the standard is to have election officials from each party at each stack of ballots,  picking it up and putting it in one of four piles (R, D, other, or "we're not sure"), then counting the piles and locking them back up again.

This goes very fast really, should be over in a week if done right.


[ Parent ]
sorry, I'm not impressed by this call to count everything (4.00 / 1)
The reason we're asking to count the ballots here isn't that we need to check the machines - it's that there's basically ZERO chance of Thompson winning on absentees.

I'm fine with checking the machines.  I'm not at all fine with going through every paper ballot in search of votes that can be disqualified on one technicality or another.


[ Parent ]
How about an entire Congressional District (4.00 / 1)
Take a look at CD 1 on Long Island Democrat Tim Bishop's 3,300 vote lead magically disappears when the memory cards are downloaded and his opponent comes up with a 392 vote lead. Big, Big trouble ahead everywhere!

That one does make me wonder (0.00 / 0)
about the value of the new voting machine systems, period.  Perhaps we've harpooned ourselves, deploying these machines in a year of close races.

[ Parent ]
Oh please (0.00 / 0)
If you've ever done election night reporting you would know that things like that are common. The old machines had the same issue, because the issue had nothing to do with the machines.

The easiest way for that to happen is to have someone dumb sitting on the phone at the BOE writing down the results as people phone them in. If they confuse which box to write which number in and answer 50 calls, they might write the green party candidate's total in the Democrat box on 50 different precincts. You know who usually answers the calls and writes down the vote totals on election night? Not the BOE staff - they're too busy. Its their kids, their brothers, their 81 year old mothers. They might get 10 minutes of training in a good year.

That's why the election night tally is EXTREMELY unofficial, and why BOE employees then go check the machines by hand, a process that takes a few days.


[ Parent ]
Not at all sure it is about the machines (4.00 / 2)
The machines have the capacity to check for tampering, etc. by counting the votes manually.  I, for one, think that is important, if unwieldy in 50-50 races.

We need to remember that keeping lever machines was not an option under HAVA-- they choice was the machines we have, that allowed for a manual recount-- and the machines that have proved very untrustworthy in other places, as all that is available is a memory chip, which can be altered after votes are cast.


The machines cannot prevent tampering (0.00 / 0)
but if they are tampered with in any way it will be obvious. That's the same compromise we were making with the lever machines.

[ Parent ]
Eight Hundred Bucks An Hour? (4.00 / 4)
The retainer is too damn high!

Agreed, what's up with the lawyers? (0.00 / 0)
There don't seem to be crowds of very expensive lawyers at the hand-counting of ballots in other counties...

[ Parent ]
Er, countries (0.00 / 0)
not counties...

[ Parent ]
Here's what's up (0.00 / 0)
It's extrememly expensive to maintain the illusion of a democratic system.

We won't get that system back until they either run out of money or we start using tactics that negate their financial advantages.

I won't get into specifics about said tactics, except to point you to south towards Latin America and very different types of crowds.


[ Parent ]
Recounts (4.00 / 1)
Counting every paper ballot isn't as difficult as it appears - most ballots clearly indicate the wishes of the voter, and in a situation like this, examiners are only looking at one race, not the entire ballot.  Given what's at stake, it seems a reasonable expenditure, just like printing enough ballots so that, in the unlikely eventuality that every registered voter shows up, they can have a ballot.  In Orange County, in districts that were known to have heavy turnouts, the Board of Elections nickel and dimed and only printed up as many ballots as they thought would show up.  Needless to say, there were wrong.

Additionally, where I voted, in Greenwood Lake, we were jammed in the smallest room at the Library, and there was virtually no privacy afforded voters to mark their ballots.  That needs to change.


fast food, fast cash, ez pass tollbooths (4.00 / 4)
speed and convenience are okay when it comes to some things,  but i see no need to rush something as important as who runs my government.

i'd rather count every single ballot by hand and get it right than trust a machine that we KNOW isn't counting every ballot.

if we don't care enough about our democracy to ensure the ballots have  been counted properly why dont we just skip the whole election thing altogether and go with the system they have in china.


Speaking of EZ pass, there's a comparison (0.00 / 0)
Two times in the past year I got falsely cited for going through over the speed limit. When they rechecked the record (as in rechecking a ballot) it turned out they were in error. Machines make mistakes.


[ Parent ]
We have a paper trail for a reason. Let's use it. (0.00 / 0)


Recounts gone mad? | 20 comments
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